Nomad101bc
Member
Whats the point of a CCW permit if its known you already own a hand gun? That means the criminals just know exactly who not to rob or who to rob heavily reducing civilian effectiveness against criminals.
Sandusky Register publishes names of CCP holders
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jr81452
Member
yet when we say " guns don't kill people, people kill people" or "those who want to kill somebody will find a way even if guns are banned" then we are "just a bunch of gun nuts"
i hope you guys in ohio can get your local business men to stop advertising with these a-holes.
jeff, the problem is that most criminals know that many people with CCWs have more than one firearm at their home. now that they know who you are all they have to do is wait for the house to be empty and "score". also some jobs will start harassing you if they are anti gun. its bad enough that the goverment has the list of who CCWs we don't need anyone else to have that info. imagin the public outcry if they keept a list of say who is gay, or who pro-abortion, or who is a perticular religion, and then made it available to the media so they could publish it whenever they felt like it. how long would it be before such people were targeted and made to suffer for their beliefs? discrimination is discrimination no matter how you spin it.
elrod
Member
Jeff
2) Lets the BGs know who probably does not have a firearm on his person or at home.
3) Invasion of privacy
These are three reasons that I think of on the spur of the moment. I'm sure, given time more would occur to me, not the least of which is that it's nobodys damn business!
1) Lets the BGs that you, in all probability, have firearms in your home. (Burgulary)
2) Lets the BGs know who probably does not have a firearm on his person or at home.
3) Invasion of privacy
These are three reasons that I think of on the spur of the moment. I'm sure, given time more would occur to me, not the least of which is that it's nobodys damn business!
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I'm cutrious as to why CCW license info is available to anyone who wants it; but Vehicle License info isn't??? Because someone could take your plate, determine where you live, and do really bad things to you. Every state has enacted laws to make it darn near impossible for anyone other than the Police or PI's (who are actively engaged in an investigation, and who cannot turn that info over to anyone without going to jail) to access them. This became the standard after some very high profile murders of celebrities.
Jeff,
Here's another reason it's dangerous to publish this info.
Say, someone; like a woman, was married to or lived with an abusive mate.
She finally got away, moved out, got an unlisted number and a CCW because of the RO's and the beatings she's taken.
Now the ex sees this in the paper and heads on over to finish the job.
Or maybe a witness was intimidated at one time, and now has a CCW. Might the released felon want revenge?
What about police, corrections, judges and others similar who have CCW? (Don't know if they are already not listed in Ohio)
I'm sure there are more reasons.
Here's another reason it's dangerous to publish this info.
Say, someone; like a woman, was married to or lived with an abusive mate.
She finally got away, moved out, got an unlisted number and a CCW because of the RO's and the beatings she's taken.
Now the ex sees this in the paper and heads on over to finish the job.
Or maybe a witness was intimidated at one time, and now has a CCW. Might the released felon want revenge?
What about police, corrections, judges and others similar who have CCW? (Don't know if they are already not listed in Ohio)
I'm sure there are more reasons.
Er.... you guys do know that Sandusky has a discussion-forum at http://sanduskyregister.com/articles/2007/06/25/front/319418.txt ? Scroll to the bottom of the list of outed names and pile on 
gunsmith
member
I just called the publisher
he doesn't want to talk about it, all I asked was that he also publish the names of his subscribers and advertisers so I can also call them.
Douglas D. Phares
3216 Angels Way
Sandusky, OH 44870-5995
(419) 621-1726
he doesn't want to talk about it, all I asked was that he also publish the names of his subscribers and advertisers so I can also call them.
Douglas D. Phares
3216 Angels Way
Sandusky, OH 44870-5995
(419) 621-1726
Heck, I'm just a little gadfly who loves to ask impertinent questions. Wonder if I'll get any response. Here's my email to the editor.
stay safe.
skidmark
******
I have a few questions for you. Your response will be eagerly anticipated, and much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
[skidmark]
Richmond, Virginia
There has been an assault on open government in the General Assembly that threatens to create two classes of citizens -- those with access to information and those who do not have access.
That's what public records experts contend, and they say it goes to the heart of what makes for good government.
"It's the proverbial slippery slope," said Frank Deaner, director of the Ohio Newspaper Association and a lobbyist in the General Assembly. "It puts one class in a position to tell the other whether it can have access to information."
Deaner said politics is fueling numerous efforts to enact legislation that exempts information from public disclosure, including the state's concealed weapons law.
The weapons law prohibits members of the public from getting information about who has been granted licenses by the state to carry concealed handguns.
I understand that this provision was in in the draft legislation. What action did your paper take at the time the issue was before the Ohio legislature for a decision? Copies of, or references to, editorials would be appreciated.
Other recent exemptions that have been pressed by state lawmakers include limiting access to coroner's reports and preliminary records, in addition to other documents and information about foster families.
Please explain what information you want made public about coroner's reports and foster families.
I understand that these provisions were in in the draft legislation. What action did your paper take at the time the issue was before the Ohio legislature for decisions? Copies of, or references to, editorials would be appreciated.
"It's been a continual erosion in the definition of public records during the last three sessions of the General Assembly," Deaner said. "Post-911 security worries and public fear regarding ID theft are being used as excuses to exempt information."
Tim Smith, an attorney who is a public records expert and a journalism professor at Kent State University, shares Deaner's concerns. He said without public disclosure there's no way to assure programs are being properly administered.
"You can't automatically rely on government officials to carefully follow the requirements of the law," said Smith, referring to the concealed weapons law.
Are there specific aspects of the concealed weapons law that your paper has information suggesting officials are not carefully following? If so, please cite those aspects of the law your paper believes officials are not following. Please provide information about your paper's past efforts to address those concerns, and the responses to your efforts.
The CCW law exempts the disclosure of all information about the application process and criminal backgrounds of anyone who applies for license to carry a concealed handgun. It also exempts the names of those who have been granted a permit.
If the law exempts the names of those who have been granted a permit, how did you obtain the names? Without knowing that, a reader would most likely conclude the paper violated the law in order to obtain the names.
"If the records are private, I have to rely on the sheriff to make sure he's not making any mistakes," Smith said.
Please state the paper's stance on how the Sheriff runs the rest of his department's operations, and cite any reporting or editorials regarding such.
Deaner is concerned the trend to restrict access to public documents will continue and said open government is the basis for democracy.
"Where's the point when political leaders and the public come back to the realization that we live in a democracy?" he asked. "There's a little bit of pain that goes with that."
Supporters of the secrecy provision in the concealed handguns law contend making the information available will enable criminals to target them to steal their guns.
"]Gov. Ted Strickland's office told the Register Ohioans are better off not knowing who is licensed to carry handguns for that reason and also because criminals would then know who is not armed and those individuals could be targeted.
Are the issues in the preceeding two paragraphs part of the legislative discussion prior to enactment of the law that provides "secrecy"? ("Secrecy" was placed in quotes as your paper appears to have obtained the names in spite of the legal provision to prohibit disclosure of those names.) If the response to this question is YES, please cite your paper's editorials and reporting prior to enactment of this legialation.
But Deaner said access to information is a bedrock of good government.
"It's not public information that causes harm to people, it's people who choose to do harm against others," he said. "If someone is motivated to do something like that, they're going to find a way to do it without the benefit of public records."
Could this statement also be applied to your paper's obtaining the names of concealed weapons permit holders in spite of the apparent legal protection from disclosure of those names?
Staff reporter Chauncey Alcorn contributed to this story.
EDITOR'S NOTE: The decision to make the lists available to readers was made by the Register's managing editor.
A final question: Were you aware of the response, both locally and nationally, to The Roanoke [Virginia] Times' publication of the names of Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit holders before you decided to publish a listing of local concealed weapon permit holders' names?
stay safe.
skidmark
******
I have a few questions for you. Your response will be eagerly anticipated, and much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
[skidmark]
Richmond, Virginia
There has been an assault on open government in the General Assembly that threatens to create two classes of citizens -- those with access to information and those who do not have access.
That's what public records experts contend, and they say it goes to the heart of what makes for good government.
"It's the proverbial slippery slope," said Frank Deaner, director of the Ohio Newspaper Association and a lobbyist in the General Assembly. "It puts one class in a position to tell the other whether it can have access to information."
Deaner said politics is fueling numerous efforts to enact legislation that exempts information from public disclosure, including the state's concealed weapons law.
The weapons law prohibits members of the public from getting information about who has been granted licenses by the state to carry concealed handguns.
I understand that this provision was in in the draft legislation. What action did your paper take at the time the issue was before the Ohio legislature for a decision? Copies of, or references to, editorials would be appreciated.
Other recent exemptions that have been pressed by state lawmakers include limiting access to coroner's reports and preliminary records, in addition to other documents and information about foster families.
Please explain what information you want made public about coroner's reports and foster families.
I understand that these provisions were in in the draft legislation. What action did your paper take at the time the issue was before the Ohio legislature for decisions? Copies of, or references to, editorials would be appreciated.
"It's been a continual erosion in the definition of public records during the last three sessions of the General Assembly," Deaner said. "Post-911 security worries and public fear regarding ID theft are being used as excuses to exempt information."
Tim Smith, an attorney who is a public records expert and a journalism professor at Kent State University, shares Deaner's concerns. He said without public disclosure there's no way to assure programs are being properly administered.
"You can't automatically rely on government officials to carefully follow the requirements of the law," said Smith, referring to the concealed weapons law.
Are there specific aspects of the concealed weapons law that your paper has information suggesting officials are not carefully following? If so, please cite those aspects of the law your paper believes officials are not following. Please provide information about your paper's past efforts to address those concerns, and the responses to your efforts.
The CCW law exempts the disclosure of all information about the application process and criminal backgrounds of anyone who applies for license to carry a concealed handgun. It also exempts the names of those who have been granted a permit.
If the law exempts the names of those who have been granted a permit, how did you obtain the names? Without knowing that, a reader would most likely conclude the paper violated the law in order to obtain the names.
"If the records are private, I have to rely on the sheriff to make sure he's not making any mistakes," Smith said.
Please state the paper's stance on how the Sheriff runs the rest of his department's operations, and cite any reporting or editorials regarding such.
Deaner is concerned the trend to restrict access to public documents will continue and said open government is the basis for democracy.
"Where's the point when political leaders and the public come back to the realization that we live in a democracy?" he asked. "There's a little bit of pain that goes with that."
Supporters of the secrecy provision in the concealed handguns law contend making the information available will enable criminals to target them to steal their guns.
"]Gov. Ted Strickland's office told the Register Ohioans are better off not knowing who is licensed to carry handguns for that reason and also because criminals would then know who is not armed and those individuals could be targeted.
Are the issues in the preceeding two paragraphs part of the legislative discussion prior to enactment of the law that provides "secrecy"? ("Secrecy" was placed in quotes as your paper appears to have obtained the names in spite of the legal provision to prohibit disclosure of those names.) If the response to this question is YES, please cite your paper's editorials and reporting prior to enactment of this legialation.
But Deaner said access to information is a bedrock of good government.
"It's not public information that causes harm to people, it's people who choose to do harm against others," he said. "If someone is motivated to do something like that, they're going to find a way to do it without the benefit of public records."
Could this statement also be applied to your paper's obtaining the names of concealed weapons permit holders in spite of the apparent legal protection from disclosure of those names?
Staff reporter Chauncey Alcorn contributed to this story.
EDITOR'S NOTE: The decision to make the lists available to readers was made by the Register's managing editor.
A final question: Were you aware of the response, both locally and nationally, to The Roanoke [Virginia] Times' publication of the names of Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit holders before you decided to publish a listing of local concealed weapon permit holders' names?
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gunsmith
member
I've been calling advertisers and
asking for personal info to post on the internet.
Some of them seem to be questioning whether the Register is the place to advertise.
asking for personal info to post on the internet.
Some of them seem to be questioning whether the Register is the place to advertise.
A few years back the list was published by a paper in NW Fla.
It was only after the horse was out of the barn that the legislators closed the door.
Prince Yamato
Member
To me, this is a real invasion of privacy. Why would someone do something like this? It's really disturbing that 1) someone thinks this is a good idea 2)someone else actually thought it was good enough of an idea that it deserved to be committed to print.
Best of all though, is how the title is "Conceal Carry, who needs to know" and then there's a graphic of a guy with a gun OPEN-CARRIED on his hip. Not only are they challenged in the grammar dept., they also lack a concept of what concealed carry is.
Best of all though, is how the title is "Conceal Carry, who needs to know" and then there's a graphic of a guy with a gun OPEN-CARRIED on his hip. Not only are they challenged in the grammar dept., they also lack a concept of what concealed carry is.
gunsmith
member
freedom of the press
needs some of the background checks, waiting periods and permits that we have to go through...
They have freedom of the press and so do WE!
Lets use this freedom to publish the names and home addresses and phone numbers of their reporters and editors.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
needs some of the background checks, waiting periods and permits that we have to go through...
They have freedom of the press and so do WE!
Lets use this freedom to publish the names and home addresses and phone numbers of their reporters and editors.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't believe anyone is saying their publication of the data is unlawful. I support them being able to print the dirtiest rendition of the aristocrats joke ever dreamed up. If they exercise that freedom without discretion though they might lose advertisers and subscribers, be it a filthy joke or publishing people's personal information. Its much like fred phelps. He's free to say whatever hateful things he wants and I support that under freedom of speech, it doesn't mean we have to listen or that we shouldn't make him into a pariah because of how he uses his freedom of speech.
Their misuse of this public information might also lead to it no longer being public information. There also is not a restriction on freedom of speech.
Soybomb, et al--
*waving white flag*
Actually, I agree with you. My comments were a bit of my wry humor and a little bit of a jab those of us who might forget that *all* of the BOR freedoms are important. The paper's publishing of the CCW lists might be a little bit like the "open carry" walks some pro-RKBA groups organize to make a point about being able to exercise a freedom. But, just because the paper can do it, doesn't mean they have to, or that we have to like it and can't apply (lawfully) pressure to make that decision unpleasant for them.
K
*waving white flag*
Actually, I agree with you. My comments were a bit of my wry humor and a little bit of a jab those of us who might forget that *all* of the BOR freedoms are important. The paper's publishing of the CCW lists might be a little bit like the "open carry" walks some pro-RKBA groups organize to make a point about being able to exercise a freedom. But, just because the paper can do it, doesn't mean they have to, or that we have to like it and can't apply (lawfully) pressure to make that decision unpleasant for them.
K
Linda
Member
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3816.html
We put this article up on our website last night. This is only the beginning! Keep track of www.BuckeyeFirearms.org
because it's going to get a lot uglier before it gets better for Mr. Matt Westerhold!
We put this article up on our website last night. This is only the beginning! Keep track of www.BuckeyeFirearms.org
because it's going to get a lot uglier before it gets better for Mr. Matt Westerhold!
GTSteve03
Member
Like I say in almost all of these threads..
We wouldn't have this problem to begin with if we weren't required to provide a bunch of personal information to the Government and have them compile a public database in order to exercise a basic right of self defense.
We wouldn't have this problem to begin with if we weren't required to provide a bunch of personal information to the Government and have them compile a public database in order to exercise a basic right of self defense.
MeanStreaker
Member
Hello everyone, I wanted to let you know that Ohioans For Concealed Carry is formally organizing an effort to contact businesses that advertise in The Sandusky Register to ask for their support in demanding that the paper remove its blanket list of law-abiding CHL holders' personal information, apologize for their dangerous actions, and terminate the employment of Managing Editor Matt Westerhold. I see many of you have already started. Thanks!!!
You may have heard about this effort last night when NRA News' Cam Edwards interviewed OFCC President Jeff Garvas.
If you would like to be involved, please visit our website, where I have posted a sample letter/email as well as the contact information for known advertisers of the Sandusky Register. We will be udpating that advertiser list as more info becomes available. If you could, include your contact information and request that the advertiser reply so that you may let the OFCC community know about their intentions in a dedicated forum thread I set up. OFCC assumes that no action taken on their part means that they support the Register's actions.
We must remember that polite and professional contact is the only way for us to make progress. Many people feel that anti-gun zealots like the Managing Editor of the Register purposely make their contact info available waiting for just one "bad apple" to contact them in a negative way so that they can paint the entire CHL community as irresponsible.
Thanks very much if you choose to help!
You may have heard about this effort last night when NRA News' Cam Edwards interviewed OFCC President Jeff Garvas.
If you would like to be involved, please visit our website, where I have posted a sample letter/email as well as the contact information for known advertisers of the Sandusky Register. We will be udpating that advertiser list as more info becomes available. If you could, include your contact information and request that the advertiser reply so that you may let the OFCC community know about their intentions in a dedicated forum thread I set up. OFCC assumes that no action taken on their part means that they support the Register's actions.
We must remember that polite and professional contact is the only way for us to make progress. Many people feel that anti-gun zealots like the Managing Editor of the Register purposely make their contact info available waiting for just one "bad apple" to contact them in a negative way so that they can paint the entire CHL community as irresponsible.
Thanks very much if you choose to help!
Silver Bullet
Member
I keep wondering about the consequences when a CCW-holder's family gets killed by someone breaking into his house to steal his guns. Somebody with nothing to lose can be pretty motivated.
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