SAO vs DAO

[Gifted]

Yes, I know it's a matter of personal preference. Question is, without the ability to rent and shoot, what's a good way to decide what MY preference is? I was looking at Para Ordinance guns for a carry peice, and the various models, and basically, it comes down to whether I want SAO or DAO in the gun.

 

[Coltdriver]

Think about it from a practical view point.

Unless you are in law enforcement or security you probably don't go around in a heightened state of awaremess, right?? Unless you frequent places where you are really in danger it would be pretty hard to justify having a weapon cocked and ready to fire right???

Unless you really train with great regularity it would not be an insult to say that a situation could overwhelm your ability to act in a purposeful way, ie cock a weapon.

So find an DA/SA or a DAO pistol and relax.

You pull it out, pull the trigger, it goes boom. All of the modern police weapons are this config. No safety, DAO or DA/SA pistols. Most have a de cocker.

Just my two cents worth from years of uneventful daily concealed carry. If none of the above descriptions apply to you that's ok, they all apply to me!

 

[RyanM]

Unless you are in law enforcement or security you probably don't go around in a heightened state of awaremess, right?? Unless you frequent places where you are really in danger it would be pretty hard to justify having a weapon cocked and ready to fire right???

You pull it out, pull the trigger, it goes boom. All of the modern police weapons are this config. No safety, DAO or DA/SA pistols. Most have a de cocker.

Duuuuh? So... a gun which requires a manual safety to be deactivated is bad because it's "more ready" than a DA gun with no safety, yet the DA gun is better because it's "more ready?"

 

[KurtC]

Over the years I have come to view and use single action pistols for offensive purposes, when you are going into a situation in which you fully intend to shoot, whether clearing a room or punching paper.

I carry DAO pistols for those times when shooting would be a purely defensive response.

In either situation, the most important thing is that every shot has the same trigger pull, and that you practice accordingly.

 

[Bear Gulch]

I think picking the one you are most comfortable with and putting in sufficient practice is more important that SAO/DAo.

 

[bountyhunter]

I was looking at Para Ordinance guns for a carry peice, and the various models, and basically, it comes down to whether I want SAO or DAO in the gun.

The Para LDA is called a DAO, but it's not. Shoot it before you buy one. Then go buy something else.

 

[Feanaro]

Unless you are in law enforcement or security you probably don't go around in a heightened state of awaremess, right?? Unless you frequent places where you are really in danger it would be pretty hard to justify having a weapon cocked and ready to fire right???

Heightened awareness is a key to staying out of trouble or getting yourself out of it. Law enforcement, military, or soccer mom, you should be paying attention to the world around you. That's not really a justification for DAO. And the second arguement could be drawn out a little further. Have not we all had an anti bleat "unless you're going to dangerous places, why do you need it!?" As if danger only stayed in certain areas. Why is it hard to justify having a pistol ready to fire? That's what they do, right? Fire. If you need it you're going to have to, you guessed it, fire it!

 

[Coltdriver]

I went from SA 1911 type pistols to revolvers simply because they can be pulled and fired with no other action required.

Now I carry either a revolver or a DA/SA semi automatic.

Why don't you guys drop the juvenille comments and offer your experience?

 

[allen268]

I like SA/DA mainly because its works well with both SD and target shooting, If SD was the only purpose then I believe DAO would fit the bill. I'll stick with SA/DA because I do spend alot of time target shooting with the same pistol I carry for SD.

 

[c_yeager]

Without having any ability to try a gun there is no way at all to tell what your prefference is. As long as you buy a quality firearm there is no real practicle difference. Just pick a gun that you like and practice with it untill you are good at it. I will say that a DAO is a bit harder to "master" than a SA. However it is also a good skill to have that is easier to learn when you get started.

 

[wasrjoe]

I can't imagine anyone having trouble with clicking off a safety while raising their firearm with even a small amount of practice. C&L SAO is just as safe as any other carry method. There's a reason that most people cite a 1911s trigger as one of its strong points.

I say go with SAO. But of course, the correct answer is "find out for yourself".

 

[Alan Fud]

... The Para LDA is called a DAO, but it's not ...

You hit upon a VERY important point which is very misleading in the gun industry. Traditionally, "Double Action" meant that pulling the trigger dig two things: (1) it pulled the hammer back; and (2) it dropped the hammer.

"Double Action Only" went on to imply that the gun could not be fired in "Single Action" mode, or more specifically, that the hammer could not be cocked back. However, many DAO guns require that the striker be pre-primed otherwise pulling the trigger does nothing. Guns such as Glock, Kahr, Para's LDA line, etc.

IMHO, these are not really DAO guns because they lack the repeat striker capability.

 

[armoredman]

Muscle memeory needs to be ingrained, approx 7000 repitions, what I was told once, depending on the individual. If some one, (like myself), has been using a DA sidearm for years, switching to a SA sidearm without EXTENSIVE practice on "wiping" the safety, will automatically simply pull the trigger in a stress situation. First you look stupid, then you look dead.
if you are ging to carry an SA weapon, make DARN sure you ingrain that ability to take the safety off. I'd hate to die with a "What the.." look on my face....

 

[Soap]

In autopistols, I like SA, Safe Action/LEM Trigger/QA/etc., then DA/SA, then DAO last. The reason for this is I like a consistent trigger pull but in the case of the DAO, I definitely don't want a heavy one. I can shoot the DA/SA much faster and more accurately than any DAO I've ever fired.

As it was said, if you train with your SA, the safety is a non-issue. It is just another detail of running the gun. Its proper use becomes as instinctive as not putting your finger on the trigger or aligning your sights. The key operating word here being train, regardless of your choice.

As far as readiness is concerned. I fully believe that none really has an advantage over the other. It depends on what the shooter feels comfortable shooting. I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but it comes down to personal preference and which one fits well with your abilities. Make your gear choices, don't become a gear hog, and train like crazy.

 

[355sigfan]

I hate dao guns. They are a attorney's pistol and not a shooters. The 1911 is plenty safe. All guns are safe so long as the shooters follow the basic safety rules especially the one about keeping your DAMN FINGER OFF THE DAMN TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR READY TO FIRE.

I don't care for DA SA guns as you invariably have to slow down for the first shot or it ends up off target. I love SA guns. Glocks are also good. But I prefer 1911's.
Pat

 

[trapperjohn]

I know its been said before, but get the gun you shoot best with and I would also add that you enjoy shooting.

I ended up with a 1911 SAO because i loved the trigger, really enjoyed shooting it, and was most accurate with that platform. I have guns nto only because of defense but because i enjoy shotting the durn things. that being said, when I carry a gun, it is for defense, and I therefore want it to be the gun i am most familiar with. Because of that I carry 1911 style pistols. I wouldnt want to pull out a DAO that I rarly shoot and have my reflexes think it is a 1911 that i shoot often.

 

[bountyhunter]

I can't imagine anyone having trouble with clicking off a safety while raising their firearm with even a small amount of practice. C&L SAO is just as safe as any other carry method.

I know what you are saying, but I keep seeing the video footage of the jewelry stor owner who was being robbed and pulled out his semi and started yanking the trigger (the safety was on). The robber with a revolver promptly shot him to death and took the gun. He then aimed it at the guy and pulled the trigger... safety still on. Dropped it because he figured it didn't work.

I have no idea what it's like to be a half second from death and so I don't know exactly what remnants of my mind and muscles will be functional. I believe what an expet once said: in such a situation you will never rise to peak performance, you will instantly drop to baseline of training.

SW model 66 revolver for my defense gun.

 

[Krag]

I must disagree with Bountyhunter in the strongest way. Para's LDA pistols are some of the most practical and user friendly pistols I have every shot. I use one in USPSA Production matches with excellent results. I know several LEOs who carry them and they love them too.

The SA pistol is a poor choice for defensive purposes for anyone other then a highly trained professional. You are not a SWAT team member or in combat and at the ranges at which you are likely to use a handgun, the difference in accuracy between a SA and DA handgun would be insignificant while the latter would be much safer.

I carry a Kahr PM9 on a daily basis. It has one of the best DAO triggers on the market, is accurate, safe, and simple to use.

 

[NMshooter]

So come up here with some ammo and shoot some pistols.

I can let you shoot a 1911 and a Glock, and I am sure others would be willing to let you try out their pistols.

You really do need to shoot more.

Maybe you could bug Sam and see what he would let you shoot.

And if you want to rent just go to Calibers.

 

[bountyhunter]

I must disagree with Bountyhunter in the strongest way. Para's LDA pistols are some of the most practical and user friendly pistols I have every shot.

I also enjoy shooting mine. But if you understood the LDA mechanism better, you would know there are a number of possible failure modes or malfunctions which will render it non-operational for the round chambered up.

1) Dud round? You can not cock the hammer and get a second strike, the slide must be cycled by hand to reset the internal cocking cam.

2) The internal cam can "release" without firing from a number of causes, ie the sear slipping off the hammer hook due to lower sear spring strength. If that cam releases, you will still believe the gun is cocked and ready to fire (hammer will be forward) but when you pull the trigger, nothing will happen.

3) Trigger bar release failure. The cocking cam's rotation to the elongated side must drive the trigger bar below the hammer's tail hook so it can be driven forward. If the cam wears enough along that edge, the trigger bar will snag on the hammer and cause it to "hang" halfway forward. Again, no fire and the slide must be hand cycled.

4) Series 80 block failure to lift. The mechanism by which the FP blocking plunger is lifted out of the way is somewhat complicated, and the lifter is a flat piece of stamped metal. If it wears along the edge, the block will gradually be lifted less and drag on the firing pin giving random light strike failures.

For the record: my gun has had failures #2, #3, and #4 at various points with less than 5000 total rounds fired. It is currently operational (new parts installed).

As I said, I enjoy shooting my LDA. Based on the complexity of the mechanical design and the number of stamped metal parts in the fire control hardware, I would not choose to bet my life on it. I acknowledge it is being used in LE, so they obviously do not share that opinion.

 

[Coltdriver]

Bountyhunter said:

I know what you are saying, but I keep seeing the video footage of the jewelry stor owner who was being robbed and pulled out his semi and started yanking the trigger (the safety was on). The robber with a revolver promptly shot him to death and took the gun. He then aimed it at the guy and pulled the trigger... safety still on. Dropped it because he figured it didn't work.

That is a good example of the point I was trying to get to in my first post. When you are confronted with a situation that has you pulling a pistol you may or may not be able to do much more than pull the trigger. Everyone has different levels of self control but none of us are immune to having the **** scared out of us.

For me, just pointing and pulling the trigger is all I am going to ask of my self. I don't regularly conduct draw exercises and I don't want to. I do practice my point shooting with regularity.

I recently bought a SA/DA FN Browning for the exact reason that it could be pulled and fired and it has double strike capability in the off chance a cartridge fails to fire. When I don't have the FN on my belt I have a revolver.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

My thumb on top of my safety is a natural part of my grip with my 1911 pistols. I have noticed, however, that most slide-mounted safety levers (as opposed to my frame-mounted safety) such as on the Beretta 92 and the Bersa .380, for example, are difficult to disengage. It requires a thumb movement that is opposite of the direction needed for the thumb to get a good grip on the pistol. Most of them are also hard to reach, I find, even with my not-small hands.

I don't care about a "second strike" capability because if a round doesn't go bang then it's getting ejected in a really big hurry. Never when my arse in on the line would I think "Hmm, that's odd. The primer didn't detonate. Let me try again...". Just a tap-rack-bang is all we need.

I don't need to be "highly-trained" or a "professional" to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire, either.

 

[bountyhunter]

That is a good example of the point I was trying to get to in my first post. When you are confronted with a situation that has you pulling a pistol you may or may not be able to do much more than pull the trigger. Everyone has different levels of self control but none of us are immune to having the **** scared out of us.

For me, just pointing and pulling the trigger is all I am going to ask of my self.

Ditto.

I have seen the same effect just from the pressure of league shooting (speed shooting). Some of my guns have a mag release button I can reach with my thumb (so I use that during reload) and some I can't reach so I release it with the left thumb as I go for the new mag.

Even though I try to focus on which gun I am shooting (and which reload method to use) I still sometimes "cross up" in a rush. And I practice a lot.

same thing here. Some guns have safeties, some don't. Some release "down". some "up" (like my Beretta). I won't bet my life on having to perform a function under pressure that is different on different guns. Trigger pull is the only motion common to every gun in the world... including the cap gun you shot when you were four years old.

 

[Krag]

Bountyhunter - I have approx. 10,000 rds. through my 18.9 LDA so far with ZERO problems. My cop friend has about the same through his .40 LDA with no problems. I think the design is about as good as one can do and still keep the 1911 ergonomics entact.

While I don't use one for defensive/CCW purposes (I use a Kahr) I wouldn't hesitate to do so. If you look at Para's new catalog you'll see they have almost as many (more?) LDA models now as they do SA pistols and they have told me there are more coming.

Check it out: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomf...;ampTest=1&remove_url=http://www.paraord.com/

 

[bountyhunter]

I have approx. 10,000 rds. through my 18.9 LDA so far with ZERO problems. My cop friend has about the same through his .40 LDA with no problems. I think the design is about as good as one can do and still keep the 1911 ergonomics entact.

OK, that's a valid data point. I am not saying it's a terrible design, I am saying that compared to the actual 1911, it is about 5X as complicated (for starters). And, it's operation depends on tolerances of parts which are not held to tight tolerances (mine failed to reset the trigger regularly because the drawbar was dragging on the hammer pin). Proper operation also depends on a complicated sequence of events among many parts... If you have a good one, I won't dispute that. But one of my degrees is in mechanical engineering, and I will simply restate my opinion this is not a design I will ever bet my life on. It is the "anti matter" reflection of the words to live by: keep it simple, stupid.