SAO vs DAO

[355sigfan]

The SA pistol is a poor choice for defensive purposes for anyone other then a highly trained professional. You are not a SWAT team member or in combat and at the ranges at which you are likely to use a handgun, the difference in accuracy between a SA and DA handgun would be insignificant while the latter would be much safer.
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Why do you feel this way. I totally disagree. The sa is not that much harder to master. All you need to train yourself on is to disengage the safety during your weapon presentation. Its fairly simple. Its a much easier gun to shoot than other designs. I really hate the LDA. Its light enough but the long reset is harder to shoot fast and accurately.
Pat

 

[Krag]

The belief that a SA pistol is easier to shoot then other designs is wrong. A DAO handgun's (revolver or auto) operating drill is "draw, aim, pull tigger." No safeties to manipulate, squeeze, pull or push.

In addition, the longer trigger pull greatly lessens the chances of an AD which, in our litigatious society, is an important factor. Why do you think the vast majority of police agencies forbid their officers to use SA pistols?

If I am ever forced to use my handgun to defend myself I don't want the bad guy's attorney (or the district attorney) claiming I had a "hair trigger" on my handgun. I want a handgun that is 110% defendable in court. Anyone who thinks that can't happen in a "justifiable" shooting has got a lot to learn about our legal system.

I'm not saying the SA is a dangerous design or that you can't learn to use one safely. I'm saying why stack the odds against yourself - or your department - when you don't gain any real advantage by using such a handgun?

The firearms media in this country glorifies the 1911 pistol for a very simple reason. There is a vast aftermarket parts and support industry devoted to the 1911. To those in media that translates to "potential advertisers" who you have to keep happy. Why do you think you see 1911 pistols on the covers of gun magazines more often then any other type of handgun. This has led to the public's misconception that it is the "best" handgun.

I wish I had a dollar for every person I know - including myself - who spent beau coups $$$ on a custom "super, street combat" 1911 pistol only to find out it was too large, too heavy and too complicated for everyday carry.

I'm not knocking the 1911, I have owned many and still use them for competition. But I think that they are not the best choice for the average person who wants a pistol for home defense/CCW purposes.

 

[Soap]

The belief that a SA pistol is easier to shoot then other designs is wrong. A DAO handgun's (revolver or auto) operating drill is "draw, aim, pull tigger." No safeties to manipulate, squeeze, pull or push.

You caught me. Here I've been shooting SA pistols better than DAOs for years, but I must be mistaken. If you haven't taken the time to actually train with an SA, then of course it will be harder for you to shoot. That goes for any system. For me, DAOs are much harder to shoot than SAs just because I never train with a DAO save my J-Frame.

In addition, the longer trigger pull greatly lessens the chances of an AD which, in our litigatious society, is an important factor. Why do you think the vast majority of police agencies forbid their officers to use SA pistols?

Finger off the trigger means finger off the trigger. If it is on there, that means your shooting anyway so the pull length is moot.

If I am ever forced to use my handgun to defend myself I don't want the bad guy's attorney (or the district attorney) claiming I had a "hair trigger" on my handgun. I want a handgun that is 110% defendable in court. Anyone who thinks that can't happen in a "justifiable" shooting has got a lot to learn about our legal system.

I'm confused again here...can you point us to a case where this was the deciding factor in the judgement?

I'm not saying the SA is a dangerous design or that you can't learn to use one safely. I'm saying why stack the odds against yourself - or your department - when you don't gain any real advantage by using such a handgun?

The benefits I get from an SA is that I shoot the gun faster, more accurately, and conceal the flat 1911 better than any other gun that I own.

I wish I had a dollar for every person I know - including myself - who spent beau coups $$$ on a custom "super, street combat" 1911 pistol only to find out it was too large, too heavy and too complicated for everyday carry.

That is definitely a personal thing and has nothing to do with the design. If in the course of you training with your Super Street Combat 1911 you found it too complicated, that is just fine. For example, my wife when she first shot the 1911 and my J-Frame, she found the J very had to manipulate to load and to shoot, whereas the 1911 was very natural for her.


Basically, as long as it is reliable, accurate, and you can shoot it pretty quick, gear DOESN'T MATTER! I'm sure Ernie Langdon can smoke me with his DA/SA pistols and me with my 1911s. Hardware should be one of those things that comprimies 1/20th of your thoughts on carrying a gun defensively. And load selection is the other 19/20...just kidding Training training training.

 

[355sigfan]

1) Dud round? You can not cock the hammer and get a second strike, the slide must be cycled by hand to reset the internal cocking cam.
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In fairness you should not be wasting time cocking the hammer you should go right to a tap rack access drill.

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The belief that a SA pistol is easier to shoot then other designs is wrong. A DAO handgun's (revolver or auto) operating drill is "draw, aim, pull tigger." No safeties to manipulate, squeeze, pull or push.
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Sorry I disagree. a DAO or DA SA has a long 8 to 12 pound trigger pull that must be struggled through in order to achieve a hit. With the sa the safety comes off during the draw stroke without thinking its trained. Then you only have a 3.5 to 5 pound trigger to pull in order to achieve a hit. Most shooters score better with SA handguns in competitons and in police qualifications. At least thats what I have observed.

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In addition, the longer trigger pull greatly lessens the chances of an AD which, in our litigatious society, is an important factor. Why do you think the vast majority of police agencies forbid their officers to use SA pistols?
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Thats not true. First off its not accidental its Negligent Discharge. They are causes by such things as startle response, sympathetic hand response, and postureal instability. If you keep your finger off the trigger the gun will not fire if you don't it probably will. Its that simple. Also its not true that most agencies forbid the 1911. Most allow it for off duty and many are starting to issue it again for on duty use. Such as Tocama PD with Kimbers. Most agencies that allow officers to carry what they chose also authorized the 1911. At leasts thats what I have seen.

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If I am ever forced to use my handgun to defend myself I don't want the bad guy's attorney (or the district attorney) claiming I had a "hair trigger" on my handgun. I want a handgun that is 110% defendable in court. Anyone who thinks that can't happen in a "justifiable" shooting has got a lot to learn about our legal system.
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First off you have been listening to Ayoob way too much. The hair trigger argument only comes into play if you accidentaly shot someone. They they ream you for having a light trigger you could not control. If its a justified shoot there is no problem. The real lesson here is not to accidentally shoot someone.


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I'm not saying the SA is a dangerous design or that you can't learn to use one safely. I'm saying why stack the odds against yourself - or your department - when you don't gain any real advantage by using such a handgun?
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What do you gain how about the handgun with the greatest hit probablity under stress ever made. The 1911's trigger is the easiest to master for shooting fast and accurately. Thats why its the predominate choice of Swat teams and handgun competition shooters and firearms instructors. No other design comes close. My department is going to an optional carry system and I will be carring my WIlson CQB. I consistently shoot higher scores with the 1911. And from what I have seen as a firearms instructor most others do to.


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The firearms media in this country glorifies the 1911 pistol for a very simple reason. There is a vast aftermarket parts and support industry devoted to the 1911. To those in media that translates to "potential advertisers" who you have to keep happy. Why do you think you see 1911 pistols on the covers of gun magazines more often then any other type of handgun. This has led to the public's misconception that it is the "best" handgun.
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Its the best because as I said earlier its low bore axis, short trigger pull with a short reset lends itself to shooting well under stress. No other design can be shot as accurately under stress as the 1911. Thats why it dominates ISPC and its the choice of SWAT and the Military Spec opps community.

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I wish I had a dollar for every person I know - including myself - who spent beau coups $$$ on a custom "super, street combat" 1911 pistol only to find out it was too large, too heavy and too complicated for everyday carry.
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Its the easiest full size auto to carry bar none due to its thin design. If you want light weight you can get the new scandium Smith. If its too complicated your really not mentally capable to carry a pistol at all.

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But I think that they are not the best choice for the average person who wants a pistol for home defense/CCW purposes
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I disagree I think they are the best choice there is in a fighting handgun which would serve the home defense and ccw role very well. To each their own. But most the 1911 detractors are using myth and speculation and not real tangible arguments.
Pat

 

[Krag]

Dan & 355 - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gifted]

I'm seeing two messages here: With the training, there's nothing wrong with a SAO. With a DAO, it's simpler. Both sides seem to be saying train with it though.

So, I already shoot competition with a 1911 type. So it makes sense for me to get a SAO for my carry, since the CCW and comp training will be reinforcing each other, right?

 

[Krag]

Gifted - you are right. My concern is that too many people, under the aforementioned influence of the gun media, buy and carry 1911 pistols without sufficient training.

I help teach the state required shooting course for CCW applicants and it is our standard policy to attempt to dissuade inexperienced shooters from using SAO pistols. We have people with zero experience with handguns show up with a 1911 with a 3 lbs. trigger and all the bells & whistles loaded with +P ammo, usually because they "...read in a magazine this is the best combat pistol and ammo." They would be much better served - and those around them safer - if they had a S&W Model 10 revolver. :banghead:

While I have the training and skills to carry and use a SAO pistol safely - and did in the past - I choose not to because I feel uncomfortable doing so. The difference in accuracy and speed between the two designs at the distances a defensive handgun is likely to be used are insignifcant. As the chances of me getting into a long range gunfight with my handgun probably range from nil to zero, I feel quite well armed with my Kahr PM9.

 

[nero45acp]

I prefer revolvers or DAO auto-loaders with longer, revolver like triggers for a self-defense/carry piece. I like the consistant and long trigger because I feel it helps to reduce the potential for AD in high stress situations.

The point another poster made about keeping the finger off the trigger will negate the need for a longer/heavier trigger is valid. However, how many here have used a handgun in a true life and death situation in a civilian setting? Fear and adrenaline has a way of making even experienced hands make errors they might not otherwise make. Also, most justifiable civilian shootings happen at very close ranges, and at such close ranges any potential lose of accuracy due to a longer/heavier trigger will be slight to none. Practice reduces potential accuracy loss even further.

I recently purchased a FN BDAO (DAO Hi-Power) from CDNN which has a long, smooth, and approx. 9-10 trigger pull, and it is the perfect self-defense pistol for ME. It is essentially a hi-capacity revolver with a trigger very similar to a tuned S&W revolver. I can shoot the BDAO just as accurately as my traditional Hi-Power and 1911 (up to 10-15yds), but I do practice shooting revolvers DA alot.

Bottom line, buy, shoot, and carry what you feel most comfortable with.


nero

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I want a handgun that is 110% defendable in court

I want a handgun that is made to win fights, not court cases.

What do you think is gonna happen?

Prosecutor: "Well, this case looks like it could be self-defense, but I'm not so sure. It's kind of a gray area. Hmmm. Do I want to prosecute this one or not? I really think in that situation I would have defended myself, too. Wait a minute...what's this? The shooter used a single-action pistol with a 4.5lb trigger pull? Oh hell, that's the deciding factor. I'm filing charges on this one. It's a clear case of unjustifiable force"

Puh-leeze

If anybody wants to select a pistol based on how kind and gentle it will seem in court, that's their business. I'll pick the one that will help me live long enough to get to court, if need be. Better there than the morgue. For me , that's a Colt Goverment Model, .45 Automatic.

 

[Old Dog]

If anybody wants to select a pistol based on how kind and gentle it will seem in court, that's their business. I'll pick the one that will help me live long enough to get to court, if need be. Better there than the morgue. For me , that's a Colt Goverment Model, .45 Automatic.

Thank you. I concur. Frankly, if going to court post-shooting is a concern, perhaps one should not be carrying a firearm.

In addition, the longer trigger pull greatly lessens the chances of an AD which, in our litigatious society, is an important factor. Why do you think the vast majority of police agencies forbid their officers to use SA pistols?

Huh? It's my conclusion, based on both reported and well-documented NDs -- they're NOT ADs -- and anecdotal evidence that the vast majority of NDs occur with Glocks, which the vast majority of policy agencies seem to favor.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Generations of Americans carried loosey-goosey M1911s in four major wars and countless minor skirmishes and engagements. From the trenches of WWI to some of the worst jungles in the world (Viet Nam triple canopy jungle, or the jungles of New Guinea) to the Arctic (Siberian intervention) to the desert (North Africa).

Others may choose different, but I like a gun with EXPERIENCE.

 

[Gunz]

For me, the argument for DAO is really for the reholstering part after the round(s) have been shot.

I mean, I can see how cops or anyone after a shooting can be a bit unerved with the effects of the shooting, the noise, the smoke, the screaming, etc. To put a safety back on, use a decocker, and to remember to keep the finger off the trigger is a pretty big achievement to overcome.

I agree that a Cocked and locked 1911 is the most crisp and fast deployment for a sidearm. I love those things. The fact that a perp cannot figure releasing the safety can buy that extra millisecond if I am disarmed or struggling for my sidearm.

I also hate the DA/SA transition. I ALWAYS get those damned flyers, and I really hate to waste good ammo; especially if it is the high-end stuff.

I like the light actions of the Beretta DAOs, Paras, and SIG DAK. still, they are LIGHT. A bit scary. I am also not a big fan of the loooong triggers like the berettas. The SMiths are ok, but pretty heavy.

The Kahrs are not bad at all, if not a bit spongy. Glocks are pretty good, and most people do not shoot them correctly; they let the trigger fully reset, so the trigger gets mushy again.

I have been carrying a Ruger P97DAO and I like it. Heavy enough, but not too heavy or long. After releasing the trigger, I do not have to worry about a safety to reholster. I mean, I do not shoot everyday, nor am I inovlved in shootings everyday or even often enough to be conditioned to activate safety, etc. The range is one thing with ear plugs and muffs, but real world defense is something I have not had to do.

I carry my gun for four-legged animal attacks. Ever since I read the story of that poor lady in Frisco mauled to death by a Rottweiler ros omething like that, I told myself I have to always be armed.

DAO is an individual choice and preference, anyway. I still love my 1911s.

 

[robertbank]

Bounty Hunter

"The Para LDA is called a DAO, but it's not. Shoot it before you buy one. Then go buy something else."

You evidently don't like Paras! THe LDA is the most if not the only DA design mated sucessfully to the 1911 format. Guys who have them state over and over that it is the smoothest DA gun going. Same smooth trigger pull each and every time. Sure it has more parts than the 1911...it's a DA gun that is why. So too has the CZ, have many more parts. Doesn't make it a bad design just uses more parts. It is true parts break but there were gunsmiths long before Para made the LDA and the ones that have come along since make their living fixing guns that break including Paras.

I love my five 1911's they are all grreat guns but hardly the zenith of pistol design. Modern manufacuturing has made the 1911 a better pistol than it's original format, I refer to the ramped barrel and coil spring based extractors as well as sights and Beavertails. The 1980 firing pin sytem is relatively new on the 1911's used by Colt and Para as is the Schwartz system used by Kimber. Not sure about either as an improvement. Fortunately my Norinco's are not blessed with either.

If I had to trust my life on a gun give me a shotgun, rifle than if you must a pistol. Any of my 1911's will do as will my CZ or Hi-Power.

To the original poster, the LDA is a simple pistol to learn to shoot as are most DA pistols. Somebody pointed out how easy it is to draw and fire a DA pistol with a decocker. Flicking off the safety on a an LDA is about the easiest operation going, like the SA 1911's requiring about zero time to learn and do automatically. I doubt there is any practical difference in timing to get first shot off with either system. Pick the LDA from Para or any other pistol design you choose and practice with it alot.

 

[355sigfan]

You don't have to remember to decock or flick the safety its muscle memory you revert to your state of training. And even if you do screw up and reholster a weapon with the safety off or a da with the hammer cocked its no big deal so long as you KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE DAMN TRIGGER.
Pat