Say a ccw holder is in an accident...

[Warren]

Auto, industrial, random, it does not matter. What happens to the firearm?

If the injury is serious and the person needs to be transported what would the EMTs do IF they found the gun?

The Wife asked me this and I think it is a good question.

 

[molonlabe]

EMT's will not touch it but will have the police secure it.

If it is on your person and interfering with your care I would personally remove it but I am not afraid and know how to safely handle handguns. Other EMT’s might have the police secure it or exit from your immediate area. There are no clear-cut answers to this and each situation is unique. Scene safety is paramount to EMT’s and is stressed throughout the training.

Maybe EMT's in carry states can chime in as to the current thinking of their EMS about this.

 

[goalie]

In both ERs I have worked in we had lock boxes for securing firearms. Usually the EMTs or Medics will find the firearms first and the police secure it, but sometimes we find them. No biggie if you are carrying legally.

 

[Billy Sparks]

Usually there are no true rules on what to do with a weapon on a scene. I usually tell my guys if you are not familar with firearms leave it alone let PD handle it. We turn the firearm over to the PD and let them take care of it for the owner. Several 6+ years ago JEMS (Journal of Emergency Medical Services) actually did a magazine article about having a CCW patient. Was a well balanced article.

 

[DragonFire]

Maybe not quite what you're asking but I make sure that my wife has all of my (our?) handguns on her permit . If for any reason, like being hurt, I have to remove whatever I'm carrying, I can legally give it to her to take home or whatever.

May not help in a major accident where emergency action is needed, but in non life threatening situations it's one less complication. If she couldn't take it, it would have to be given to a LEO on the scene, and no disrepect intended, but I'd be worried about getting a receipt for it, knowing who had it, where it was being stored etc. I'm worried that I would be distracted and lose track of who was taking it.


This helps in other situations, like asking my wife to bring my range bag (with extra handguns) to me for an unexpected trip to the range after work.

 

[C. H. Luke]

Can only speak to my state.....

Two incidents involved in where injured were both able to speak and make decisions.

1st one Deputy had to confiscate his pistol as he shot himself thru the buttocks but wanted to take same with. {EMT's would not let him either}

2nd fellow had a severe concussion, no LE involved. Secured his pistol and locked it in his trunk, gave keys back to him. {Wife picked up his car}

 

[gigmike]

Thank you for posting this topic, I'd not thought of this possibility.

 

[El Tejon]

I got "T-boned" Labor Day weekend 1995. The Sheriff's Deputy apparently took it (I really had no idea what happened to it as I was traveling in another dimension at the time). He gave my pistols to my father who luckily lived right down the road from me.

 

[Island Beretta]

good post. in my neck of the woods, quite a few ccw holders in accidents lose their weapon through theft. Guess we never really thought of that... another one is how do you carry in your car? For me I know that I sometimes unholster the weapon during long drives or in high threat area and put it on the seat. Lots of people, incl. LEO carry it between their legs, muzzle pointing out of course ..

again, good question, I need to think up the answer.., maybe also a post on how do you carry in the car? is good too.

 

[wrecktech]

Once I had to an ambulance for myself on the highway. When the first Trooper arrived, I identified myself and told him I had a pistol, where it was and asked him to secure it. After getting over the surprise, he was very professional as I handed it to him. He cleared it safely and then turned it over after I cleared the Emergency Room.

 

[Bad Words]

I have completed EMT training earlier this year, but I don't work as an EMT. My training was just outside of Seattle. One of my instructors is a Seattle police officer and he was very insistent that we never treat anyone if they have a gun on them, or a knife, no matter how calm and respectable they seemed. He said to always make it a point to look for the clip of a knife. Though EMT's have a legal obligation to treat you, it does not apply to them putting themselves into danger. Being a gun owner myself, I would probably treat as long as they were not aggressive or in a state of altered awareness. If you are in a car accident and are taken to the hospital in an ambulance, you will wind up with all your clothes cut off of you, even if you are uninjured if there is a significant mechanism of injury. You'll lose the gun eventually, so I don't think it's such a big deal to let the police take them, unless you crashed because they were chasing you.

 

[444]

I have done it both ways.
I have taken a gun, cleared it, returned it to the owner and told them the hospital would lock it up for them.
I have also taken a gun, cleared it, and given it to a police officer to hold onto.
I have also taken a gun from womens purses, cleared it, and told them the hospital would lock it up for her.
Of course if they are in their own home, I tell them to leave it there. Or, if out in public and they agree, I will give it to a friend or famly member for safe keeping.

I don't mess with knives.

 

[saddlebum]

when i had my heart attack some kind person at the scene stoled my wallet and weapon. saddlebum

 

[Jim4003]

I have been an active deputy on the road for 12 years now and I have encountered firearms at accident locations and where medical emergencies have occured. In every instance I have secured and cleared the weapon. After that I will secure the weapon at my departments evidence room until the owner can get their weapon back. I do not turn the weapon over to family and friends. My reason is I cannot always be sure this is what the victim would want. Also at a scene where I am most likely very busy I do not have time to know if the friend or family member has a history of mental illness or a criminal history that would prevent them from legally possessing a firearm. At scenes where medical personnel have arrived earlier than me I have had firearms either turned over to me or pointed out where they are at so I can get them. If I cannot give a receipt to the actual owner I will give it to family members so the victim will know where his gun went. I also note this on any reports I file.

 

[c_yeager]

have completed EMT training earlier this year, but I don't work as an EMT. My training was just outside of Seattle. One of my instructors is a Seattle police officer and he was very insistent that we never treat anyone if they have a gun on them, or a knife, no matter how calm and respectable they seemed.

I have never in my life see someone get refused treatment because they are carrying a firearm. Now firearms are routinely taken into control by hospital staff and/or EMTs but, 90% (the 10% being people who are actually under arrest) of the time the patient is given the option of having a family member pick it up or securing it in the truck of their vehicle. This policy applies to law enforcement officers as well.

I think you should ask your Seattle Police officer instructor if you should apply your "never treat anyone if they have a gun on them" to his brother officers when they are injured on or off duty. I would be VERY interested to hear what he thinks about that idea...

 

[tommytrauma]

Bad Words;

I have completed EMT training earlier this year, but I don't work as an EMT. My training was just outside of Seattle. One of my instructors is a Seattle police officer and he was very insistent that we never treat anyone if they have a gun on them, or a knife, no matter how calm and respectable they seemed. He said to always make it a point to look for the clip of a knife. Though EMT's have a legal obligation to treat you, it does not apply to them putting themselves into danger. Being a gun owner myself, I would probably treat as long as they were not aggressive or in a state of altered awareness. If you are in a car accident and are taken to the hospital in an ambulance, you will wind up with all your clothes cut off of you, even if you are uninjured if there is a significant mechanism of injury. You'll lose the gun eventually, so I don't think it's such a big deal to let the police take them, unless you crashed because they were chasing you.

With all due respect, your instructor spoke poorly. I've been working as a medic since 1988. I run into a gun every once in a while, and pocket knives so frequently that it's not worth mentioning. The idea that I'd refuse care to someone simply because I could see a knife clip is rediculous.

Most of the firearms I encounter are from LEO patients. It they are alert and oriented, I simply ask them how they want to handle it. With disoriented or non responsive patients, if LEO is handy, i let them secure the weapon. If no LEO is around. I simply stick the weapon in the locking drawer that we keep our narcs in. If I can remove it holster and all, I simply leave it in the holster. Otherwise, I clear it.

Sorry your instructor was so weapon phobic. i hope I'm never denied care because of my pocket knife. Scene safety is a dynamic, and has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. There is no real dogma to follow, and those who try to distill it to such instead of cultivating common sense are making a mistake.

 

[TonyB]

If some one refuses to treat me beacause I'm carrying legally,they're getting sued,if I live.

 

[Billy Sparks]

I have to agree that with the other posters, your instructor is in a very grey area. But remember he is a LEO. Nothing against LEO's but they have a VERY different vision of people than lets say fire, rescue or EMS.

 

[Bad Words]

Tommy and Chuck:

I absolutely agree with you. Like I said in my post, weapon's wouldn't bother me unless the patient was agressive or in an altered state of awareness. I did argue with the cop who said that for a while, telling him how ridiculous I thought that was. I wanted to post it though because a large number of EMT's in Washington are trained by him (North Seattle Community College), and he also teaches tactical medical care to many Seattle police officers. He noticed someone's knife clip during one of the classes, and told the students to start looking for those and make sure the patient is disarmed. I was the only one who argued with him, but when about 8 people in a class of 30 were found to have knives on them, I'd hope a few others found it silly, too. He had one student with a knife come up to the front of the class and demonstrate how quickly it could open, while mentioning the 21 foot rule. His name was Officer P.B. Nickels, by the way, may be spelled wrong, though.

 

[444]

Like Tommy said, every situation is different. You can't make blanket statements either way. If they guy is a psych patient, or is belligerent, or is a known criminal or something like that, obviously he is going to be treated differently in terms of weapons than some guy that is lying there obviously having a heart attack.
I have had knives pulled on me twice and had our engine shot at once. But normally, the patient having some type of weapon doesn't bother me in the least. Crap, almost everybody has a knife. I am not going to call the police and stand there and wait on them every time someone has a knife.

 

[themic]

you read the situation. EMTs and especially medics are very very good at this. the knowleedgable and confident will secure the firearm someitmes, sometimes defer to police. the rest will almost always defer to police.

i've never seen the police called to secure a weapon in an inappropriate manner (i.e. yelling "firearm!" into the radio when it's just a firearm - that tone of voice is reserved for brandishing or immediate danger involving a firearm - boy you should see the police response on one of those, geez)

 

[444]

One thing to keep in mind.
To you, this is a very dramatic event.
To the medics on the call, it is just another call. One of many they will run that day. One of thousands they will run over their lifetime.
Ask them about it the next day, and they might need a hint to pin down exactly which call you are talking about. Two days later, they probably won't have any idea what you are talking about. If they remember it right off the bat, It must have been a hell of a story. I usually catch up on my reports after dinner. I frequently have to ask my partner what call these notes pertain to and sometimes have to have him give me some of the details before I punch in. Sometimes neither one of us remembers.
How many calls have I run where the patient had a knife ? A thousand ?
Guns ? a hundred ?

 

[Billy Sparks]

The only reason I remember the last call where the patient had a gun on him was because the call was such a cluster. Of course we were also doing CPR on the guy and the gun (a little .22 or .25) fell out of his pocket.

 

[CatsDieNow]

Bad Words,

I hope that officer never has an accident while on duty. You'd have to refuse treatment...

Glad to hear you'd do what was appropriate for the situation.

 

[Darkmind]

Well this one kind of hits home for me.


About two years agao I was stationed and liveing down in GA with my security forces section. I had turned 21 a few months before and had just got my CCW a few weeks after my 21st Bday. Well i decided to take a week off and ride my bike ( honda F4I ) home up too michigan and say hi to my family. Need less to say, i was planning on carrying all the way home and back. So i get there and after a few day of being with my family i decide to take off and go rideing with some of my friends. After about 30 min of rideing on the highway i hit a big pothole that i dident see. Pothole threw me into a tankslapper. Due to the tankslapper i could not get control of the bike and ended up hitting a guardrail face first at 80 MPH. At that time i was carrying a Glock 23 and two extra mags in one of thouse Galco mami style sholder holsters.


Needless to say Bike + Me + 80 MPH + Guardrail = LOTS OF PAIN


I was wearing a full leather jacket and helmet so abrasive damage to my body was low. Impact damage was a different story, Impacted 5th matacarpul = pinky bone in hand turned to powder. LOTS AND LOTS of bruseing. Other than that i came out ok, after every thing said and done i now have full use of my left hand. I did land very hard on the Glock that i was carrying, When i looked at it later it dident even have a scuff mark on it and neather did the holster. The leather jacket I had on was of very high quality and it did its job. But i did have a very large gun shaped bruse on my left side LOL.


The whole time all of this was going on i was still carrying. I did not black out or go into shock so while i was wateing for an ambi i made sure to tell everyone around me that i was carrying and i also had a CCW. The michigan state peace officer checked all my paper work and told me to keep it holstered untill i could get out of sight and out of mind and then take care of it.

When the ambi got there i turned down the ride. Right after the crash my friend knowing that i was carrying went back to get his truck so we could load up my bike and take me to the hospital and unload my pistol and put it into transport mode on the way there.

All in All Thank god for good friends with sharp minds that know whats going on.