SB2 Handi-Rifle 45-70 ammo power level?

[Scout21]

It's generally recognized that there are three levels of power for 45-70 ammo; a Trapdoor loading, a Marlin loading, and a Ruger No. 1 loading. I've done some research on what power level the SB2 framed Handi-Rifle can tolerate, but I'm getting inconsistent information. Some are stating that Ruger loads can be used without issue while others are saying that only Trapdoor loads should be used. I'd love to ask NEF directly, but I'm afraid that they aren't answering phone calls on account of no longer existing. Can anyone point me to some definitive documentation stating what pressures one can handle?

 

[R.W.Dale]

It will shoot loads beyond all good sense and reason. Your shoulder will be the limiting factor


Why is it when a grown man buys a 45/70 the first thing they feel they have to do is turn it into a .458 magnum?

 

[Roverguy]

SB2 receivers were rated to 65,000 psi. As per above, recoil in a relatively light rifle will be unpleasant at the top end of 45/70 loads.

What is your intended use?

 

[Scout21]

SB2 receivers were rated to 65,000 psi

Thank you!

What is your intended use?

Mostly deer hunting with Trapdoor loads, likely towards the hotter end. I'd be using copper bullets, so I'd want a bit of velocity behind them. I really just wanted to know how much margin of error I safely had and that I wasn't putting undue strain on the barrel or frame.

I was considering loading a few Marlin loads just for giggles, though.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The medium level loads would be my top practical end. Maybe a power range around 300 gr @ 1800 fps to 325 gr @ 2000.

 

[Scout21]

Why is it when a grown man buys a 45/70 the first thing they feel they have to do is turn it into a .458 magnum?

I've never found a .458 magnum on the local shelves

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Why is it when a grown man buys a 45/70 the first thing they feel they have to do is turn it into a .458 magnum?

Hey, I went through that phase when I first got my Marlin. But, not sure "why". However, I then learned through experience that the "trapdoor" loads will do it all, and the 400 grain bullet is the "sweet spot". Now I only shoot black powder in both my Marlin and my Springfield rifles. I can get 80 grains under the Speer 400 grain JSP when I feel the need for speed. (or slightly more speed than 72 grains)

Another mystery is why grown men chase velocity in a cartridge that throws big fat heavy bullets so well, with 300 grain bullets which are just kind of heavy pistol bullets?

Scout 21, are you limited to copper bullets? If not, for deer hunting (or anything for that matter) the Speer 400 grain JSP will work perfectly, and not require additional velocity to make it work. It is a sweet bullet at 1400fps.

 

[Scout21]

Scout 21, are you limited to copper bullets? If not, for deer hunting (or anything for that matter) the Speer 400 grain JSP will work perfectly, and not require additional velocity to make it work. It is a sweet bullet at 1400fps.

Not limited, just trying to move away from lead based bullets for edible game. Scares me when I feel myself bite down on a piece of lead at dinner. Despite my best efforts it's happened a few times over just the past few years and I can only imagine how many pieces I've already ingested without knowing it.

I even bit into a pellet of birdshot in some deer sausage a buddy had processed. Now how does that happen?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Okay, I get that. I would say that a 400 grain bullet moving at "trapdoor velocity" or around 1300-1400fps will expand a little, and not really shed any lead or jacket material like high velocity jacketed bullets do. A soft lead .458 bullet will expand a little, but again won't be shedding bits of lead. ? Something to consider.

Certainly the 300 and 325 grain bullets moving at 1800-200fps will. Birdshot in a deer...now that is a mystery. Maybe the deer had wings. ?

 

[Oldschool shooter]

For what it's worth, I used to hunt with an original Trapdoor carbine using Remington 405 grn. loads that were safe for the old gal. Killed 2 Black bear in the Upper Peninsula with it. Those loads are more than enough for deer, and they won't rattle your teeth when you pull the trigger. Unless you are in big bear country you don't need the extra power, and you would want more than a single shot anyway.

 

[Obturation]

Don't surpass lever gun loads. If you can is irrelevant, there's nothing you can't kill with trapdoor loads and lever loads just flatten trajectory. No reason to push beyond .

 

[Ugly Sauce]

For what it's worth, I used to hunt with an original Trapdoor carbine using Remington 405 grn. loads that were safe for the old gal. Killed 2 Black bear in the Upper Peninsula with it. Those loads are more than enough for deer, and they won't rattle your teeth when you pull the trigger. Unless you are in big bear country you don't need the extra power, and you would want more than a single shot anyway.

I hunt, hike, explore and bum in the woods in big-bear country, and almost always have a single shot. I figure if I get charged by the bear, I'm only getting one shot anyhow. !! Better make it good. I too have a TD carbine that I'm quite fond of, and have taken it hunting, but never have had a shot at anything with it. It's more accurate than my Springfield rifle.

72 grains 3fg Swiss, 405 grain soft lead cast bullet, SPG lube.

 

[Ranger99]

Not limited, just trying to move away from lead based bullets for edible game. Scares me when I feel myself bite down on a piece of lead at dinner. Despite my best efforts it's happened a few times over just the past few years and I can only imagine how many pieces I've already ingested without knowing it.

I even bit into a pellet of birdshot in some deer sausage a buddy had processed. Now how does that happen?

I'm confused myself
I've killed a cargo ship full of whitetail
deer and various other animals for
consumption, and have only bitten
into a pellet maybe twice in dove
breasts in all the decades of eating
mine and others fowl and game.
How is the lead chipping off to
become imbedded in the meat?

 

[someguy2800]

They will handle "modern action" loads, but you probably don't want too.

 

[someguy2800]

I saw this earlier today and got a good laugh at it.

 

[Speedo66]

I had a Trapdoor Carbine, wasn't even comfortable with 405g factory Trapdoor loads in it.

Couldn't go through a full box at a time off a bench.

 

[EMC45]

I had a Handi in 45-70 and loaded Trapdoor loads with Lee 405gr. cast bullets. I loaded 3031, Benchmark and Varget. I believe the Varget load was the one that blurred my vision and made my teeth (gums) hurt. I figured it wasn't needed for all that pain.

I settled on 16gr. Unique to kill deer. Worked perfect.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

They will handle "modern action" loads, but you probably don't want too.

Amen.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I had a Trapdoor Carbine, wasn't even comfortable with 405g factory Trapdoor loads in it.

Couldn't go through a full box at a time off a bench.

That is interesting to me, as the rifle load (70 grains, 405 grain bullet) has been objectionable to many out of the carbine, since the carbine was invented. But it sure does not bother me at all. I will say that I've never sat down and tried to shoot a whole box of cartridges at a time.

 

[tark]

there's nothing you can't kill with trapdoor loads and lever loads just flatten trajectory.

Amen to this. Nothing on this side of the world, anyway. According to Clint Smith and Mike Venturino, a 500 grain moderately hard cast 45-70 bullet pushed by 70 grains of black powder will shoot entirely through a buffalo bull, if no large bones are hit. This load only gives around 1200 fps. You don't need excessive velocity to kill a large animal. I doubt the same bullet pushed 500 fps faster by a .458 would kill that buffalo any deader.

 

[N555]

Bullets get interesting up around .458''
Hornady has a heavy copper plated steel "FMJ". Seems ideal for 4 wheeled large dangerous game.

 

[JeffG]

Why is it when a grown man buys a 45/70 the first thing they feel they have to do is turn it into a .458 magnum?

Funny, the first thing I did with my .458 is bring it down to 45/70 levels.

 

[3Crows]

I saw this earlier today and got a good laugh at it.

View attachment 1124982

Just goes to show that .45-70 Government is the answer to any cartridge question. .

OP, my bet is that a Ruger load in your rifle would eventually make it loose on lock up.

 

[Charlie98]

OP, my bet is that a Ruger load in your rifle would eventually make it loose on lock up.

I read somewhere... perhaps here at THR... on how to test your lockup. I found my .45 Colt Classic Hunter has a fair lockup, but my (SB1) .410 had a perfect lockup. One of these days I'd like to work on the Classic... if just for the experience... and improve the lockup.

My Pedersoli 1885 weighs about 14#... and I only shoot Trappy-level loads out of it. I can't imagine shooting even those out of my H&R... even a big charge of IMR4227 behind a 260grn cast bullet in .45 Colt is enough. A few rounds hunting would be one thing, 100 or 200 rounds over a weekend quite another.

That chart above is missing the T-rex and Godzilla recommendations... although I'm sure it's a .45-70, too.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

That chart above is missing the T-rex and Godzilla recommendations... although I'm sure it's a .45-70, too.

Might have to move up to the .45-90 for those crittters. I've thought about having the chamber on my Springfield rifle reamed out to .45-90, but I like Godzilla (I'm a fan) and the T-Rex they had in Montana aren't around anymore.