SB2 Handi-Rifle 45-70 ammo power level?

[Ugly Sauce]

OP, my bet is that a Ruger load in your rifle would eventually make it loose on lock up.

I've wondered about that. Break-open actions tend to...break open if over-loaded. Even if the barrel is proofed for a high pressure level, it does stand to reason that the action may not "stand" for it over a period of time.

 

[Enfielder]

It will shoot loads beyond all good sense and reason. Your shoulder will be the limiting factor


Why is it when a grown man buys a 45/70 the first thing they feel they have to do is turn it into a .458 magnum?

Speaking as a grown man, I will say that as much as any man says that they’re a grown man, men never really grow up. If they did, there wouldn’t be such a lucrative market for guns.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Speaking as a grown man, I will say that as much as any man says that they’re a grown man, men never really grow up. If they did, there wouldn’t be such a lucrative market for guns.

And motorcycles.

 

[Enfielder]

And motorcycles.

Don’t forget Corvettes

 

[JeffG]

It's good to see 45/70 love here.

 

[tark]

Don’t forget Corvettes

My son's Tesla Model S Plaid eats Corvettes. All of them. Including the Z-06.

OOPS! Sorry, not gun related. My bad. Apologies to the Moderator.

OP, my bet is that a Ruger load in your rifle would eventually make it loose on lock up.

Lest we forget, this little rifle is chambered for cartridges ( .308 for one ) that exceed Ruger #1 pressures. Your shoulder will probably encounter "loose lockup" before the gun does.

 

[someguy2800]

Doing the math on it, a ruger only 45/70 load produces about 8000 lbs of case head thrust. A 308 winchester produces a little over 11,000.

Also I would only recommend 45/70 up to velociraptors.

 

[jmorris]

My shoulder isn’t the largest fan of trapdoor loads in my Contender rifle.

IIRC, they were chambered in 450 Marlin, that is itself a “level II” 45-70, than can’t be chambered in an old 45-70.

If that doesn’t knock enough fillings out, I’d get the stronger #1 action and go from there.

 

[3Crows]

My son's Tesla Model S Plaid eats Corvettes. All of them. Including the Z-06.

OOPS! Sorry, not gun related. My bad. Apologies to the Moderator.

Lest we forget, this little rifle is chambered for cartridges ( .308 for one ) that exceed Ruger #1 pressures. Your shoulder will probably encounter "loose lockup" before the gun does.

F=AXP. The force generated rearward by a hot Ruger load is greater than that of a .308. This due to the larger diameter of the .45-70 case and the pressures of Ruger loads running up around 50,000 psi.

 

[someguy2800]

F=AXP. The force generated rearward by a hot Ruger load is greater than that of a .308. This due to the larger diameter of the .45-70 case and the pressures of Ruger loads running up around 50,000 psi.

The modern action 45-70 loads listed in the Accurate load book are 40,000 psi.

45/70 is .505" case head diameter, which is .20019 sq inches
308 is .478" case head diameter which is .17936 sq inches

45/70 at 28k (lever action loads) is 5600 lbs thrust
45/70 at 40k psi is 8000 lbs thrust
45/70 at 50k psi is 10,000 lbs thrust
308 at 60k psi is 11,000 lbs thurst

I am using the diameter just above the rim by the way.

 

[3Crows]

The modern action 45-70 loads listed in the Accurate load book are 40,000 psi.

45/70 is .505" case head diameter, which is .20019 sq inches
308 is .478" case head diameter which is .17936 sq inches

45/70 at 28k (lever action loads) is 5600 lbs thrust
45/70 at 40k psi is 8000 lbs thrust
45/70 at 50k psi is 10,000 lbs thrust
308 at 60k psi is 11,000 lbs thurst

I am using the diameter just above the rim by the way.

I was using rim diameter. Okay, I agree, you are right. Go ahead and load up with maximum Modern (Ruger) Rifle loads, the rifle can take it I suppose. I see loads without digging of 50,000 cup with a 300 and 400 grain bullets with H4198! That is a pretty stiff load for a light rifle . None of my books show anything other than Ruger no.1 and no. 3 and 1895 Browning single shots and bolt actions but the same books do not list Henry for Lever Loads so probably cannot read too much into that exclusion by possible omission.

 

[someguy2800]

I was using rim diameter. Okay, I agree, you are right. Go ahead and load up with maximum Modern (Ruger) Rifle loads, the rifle can take it I suppose. I see loads without digging of 50,000 cup with a 300 and 400 grain bullets with H4198! That is a pretty stiff load for a light rifle . None of my books show anything other than Ruger no.1 and no. 3 and 1895 Browning single shots and bolt actions but the same books do not list Henry for Lever Loads so probably cannot read too much into that exclusion by possible omission.

Yeah that's pretty stiff, most people are not going to have a good time with that. I have a handi rifle in 444 marlin that I deer hunt with. The load I shoot in it is a 320 grain gas check cast bullet over 45 grains of RL7, which gives me 2200 FPS. Quickload puts that load at 47,000 psi and has a .470 case head. Compared to 45/70 its a little more velocity than Accurates 'modern action" loads, but a little under Hodgdons "modern action" loads with a 325 grain bullet. I don't personally find it objectionable, but I think most people with a thinner skull than me would not like it. I shot 50 rounds in one day with it once and was rewarded with a nice bruise on the shoulder for a week.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I’d just like to point out these frames could be had in 270 Winchester and 500 s&w

 

[Ugly Sauce]

IRC, they were chambered in 450 Marlin, that is itself a “level II” 45-70, than can’t be chambered in an old 45-70.

Whatever happened to the .450M? I thought it was a good idea, and could take the "pressure" off of people (and small ammo companies) loading the .45-70 so hot. I didn't seem to really "catch on". ?

 

[adcoch1]

Whatever happened to the .450M? I thought it was a good idea, and could take the "pressure" off of people (and small ammo companies) loading the .45-70 so hot. I didn't seem to really "catch on". ?

Proprietary brass is what happened to it...

 

[R.W.Dale]

Whatever happened to the .450M? I thought it was a good idea, and could take the "pressure" off of people (and small ammo companies) loading the .45-70 so hot. I didn't seem to really "catch on". ?

The only thing 450 marlin accomplished was to teach everyone how hot they could load 45/70

 

[jmorris]

Whatever happened to the .450M? I thought it was a good idea, and could take the "pressure" off of people (and small ammo companies) loading the .45-70 so hot. I didn't seem to really "catch on".

It is just the 45-70 loaded to “level 2” loads. Only people that would buy one would be people that don’t reload (easily duplicated with the 45-70 and common powders) and think a couple hundred fps are “make or break” for function (small group).

 

[3Crows]

There is all sorts of urban legend or gun legend about the .450 Marlins. Some claim they had different heat treat. There was initially the use of truncated threads for the barrel to receiver and I have seen the truncated threads on an early disassembled .450 Marlin so that is true (I think). I further have heard based on lore that the truncated threading was dropped as not necessary. Some JM diehards claim that the ghost of JM hand assembled them from meteorite sourced steels that cannot be duplicated here on earth. Tonight I actually held one of the mythical beasts, a cherry mint 1895M complete with factory ported barrel. An unearthly glow emanated from the weapon and it felt warm in my touch. I quickly put it back on the rack not for fear of radiation burns but of emptying my wallet yet again and the scolding I would get from she who watches over me and keeps me out of the poor house if I were to bring the unicorn home with me .

 

[adcoch1]

There is all sorts of urban legend or gun legend about the .450 Marlins. Some claim they had different heat treat. There was initially the use of truncated threads for the barrel to receiver and I have seen the truncated threads on an early disassembled .450 Marlin so that is true (I think). I further have heard based on lore that the truncated threading was dropped as not necessary. Some JM diehards claim that the ghost of JM hand assembled them from meteorite sourced steels that cannot be duplicated here on earth. Tonight I actually held one of the mythical beasts, a cherry mint 1895M complete with factory ported barrel. An unearthly glow emanated from the weapon and it felt warm in my touch. I quickly put it back on the rack not for fear of radiation burns but of emptying my wallet yet again and the scolding I would get from she who watches over me and keeps me out of the poor house if I were to bring the unicorn home with me .

Hahaha, that's funny. Go look at a reloading manual for both 450 and the 45-70, all the mystique dies...

 

[jmorris]

There is all sorts of urban legend or gun legend about the .450 Marlins. Some claim they had different heat treat.

No telling what gets told in gun stores.

It was just a saftey to save people from themselves (and sell something “new”).

It is possible to handload the .45-70 to levels that can destroy older firearms such as the Trapdoor Springfield. The .450 Marlin offers the ballistics of such "hot" .45-70 loads without the risk of chambering in firearms that cannot handle its higher pressure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_Marlin

Ruger #1, 45-70 loads, surpass 450 Marlin loads. It’s not the case that’s the limit. The belt is there to prevent backwards compatibly, not allow more power, force or energy.

 

[tark]

The belt is there to prevent backwards compatibly, not allow more power, force or energy.

Not sure what this means. The belt is there to make sure some idiot doesn't try to shoot one in a trapdoor. It is also there because a lot of people equate a belt with magnum cartridges.

 

[jmorris]

Not sure what this means. The belt is there to make sure some idiot doesn't try to shoot one in a trapdoor.

That’s what it means.

Backward compatibility (sometimes known as backwards compatibility) is a property of an operating system, product, or technology that allows for interoperability with an older legacy system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility

 

[3Crows]

No telling what gets told in gun stores.

It was just a safety to save people from themselves (and sell something “new”).

I am not much a believer in urban legend, thus I own four .45-70 rifles, or Marlin Mythology for that matter.

I do wish the Handi-Rifle and single shots in general would make a comeback.

 

[CraigC]

They're endorsed by Buffalo Bore and were chambered in .500S&W, that says something. There was a used one in the local shop a couple months ago, wish I'd bought it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

There is all sorts of urban legend or gun legend about the .450 Marlins. Some claim they had different heat treat. There was initially the use of truncated threads for the barrel to receiver and I have seen the truncated threads on an early disassembled .450 Marlin so that is true (I think). I further have heard based on lore that the truncated threading was dropped as not necessary. Some JM diehards claim that the ghost of JM hand assembled them from meteorite sourced steels that cannot be duplicated here on earth. Tonight I actually held one of the mythical beasts, a cherry mint 1895M complete with factory ported barrel. An unearthly glow emanated from the weapon and it felt warm in my touch. I quickly put it back on the rack not for fear of radiation burns but of emptying my wallet yet again and the scolding I would get from she who watches over me and keeps me out of the poor house if I were to bring the unicorn home with me .

I think I would have chanced the scolding, bad vibes, and lack of nookie for a couple weeks, and a month or so in the poor-house for such a Unicorn. Or not. I'd also make a gun case for it out of one of those lead aprons they throw over you at the dentist office when taking X-rays. Both for protection from radiation burns, or any tracking device embedded in the material by aliens. Hostile Aliens.

I hope that handling such a Unicorn did not cause you any strange visions or dreams.