SBR, Suppressor, or SBS? Too Many Choices!?

[Javelin]

UPDATE:

RRA told me wrong (which really pisses me off on so many levels) that you cannot SBR a pistol. Which probably would have saved me some cash.

But whatever it is not anything new in my life as of late.

SBR'ing your GSG is a good idea. I have one of those too but still looking for a collapsible stock. I think I am up to over a grand in tax stamps this year alone.... once you get bit you get bit.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I'd go with a Suppressor first.

 

[Javelin]

I'd go with a Suppressor first.

I have to agree. I'm not too crazy about them but either one of these from SWR would be my recommendation. Top is the SWR Trident-9 (9mm) and the bottom is the SWR Spectre (FN5.7mm, .17HMR, .17Mach2, .22LR, .22MAG). Pretty versitile and both are arguably one of the finest suppressors on the market. Just do your research and see what you really want first and go from there.



Of course when you begin getting SBRs, suppressors, AOW you can't stop with just one.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

you guys have been a big help. In order to move forward I could use some info. Who qualifies for the CLEO sign off? I remember that the prosecuting D.A. qualifies. Obviously the Cheif of police does. Any one else?

Do I just call up and ask for the sign off, or is there a procedure that would help assure a good first impression, and secure my sign off?

 

[rob_s]

Ask around your local area and CIII dealers to see who they suggest you get to sign. I'd start with the sheriff, and if he signs you're good to go. If not, you can start hunting.

 

[PPGMD]

Just go the trust route and skip the begging for a signature.

 

[wdlsguy]

Who qualifies for the CLEO sign off?

From the instructions for Form 1:

The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police for the maker’s city or town of residence, the Sheriff for the maker’s county of residence; the Head of the State Police for the maker’s State of residence; a State or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction in the maker’s area of residence; or another person whose certifcation is acceptable to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives.

Do I just call up and ask for the sign off, or is there a procedure that would help assure a good first impression, and secure my sign off?

In general I would suggest showing up in person with your paperwork ready to sign. Dress neatly as you want to create a good first impression.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

By the way, this guy has very good prices on Suppressors and other NFA stuff, AND he does the trust for you if you buy a suppressor from him:

http://www.major-malfunction.com/

 

[Beren]

If it's not too late and within your financial means, consider saving up and doing both the SBR and suppressor at the same time. It takes a few months for the paperwork to clear, and it then it'll all just be done.

Regarding paperwork: consider going the trust or LLC route. It will save headaches and speed up the approval time.

If you must go as an individual:

* Make sure all your forms are typed or computer-generated.

* Prepare a cover letter addressed to your CLEO, briefly stating who you are, what you want from him, and what it means. (I feel it's important to emphasize that their signature DOES NOT CONSTITUTE APPROVAL. All it signifies is that you live in the CLEO's jurisdiction and you're not known to be a felon/drunk/crazy/etc, and that approval will be determined by the ATF.)

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

Thx guys! Beren, I really think I would like to go the individual route first. It would only require payment of the tax, while I can save money for the suppressor ,and read up on forming/maintaning a trust. !

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Errrrm, at this time, I know of *NO* reason not to use the trust/LLC method. But several reasons TO use the trust/LLC method.

 

[H2O MAN]

Get yourself a sound suppressor first.

 

[wdlsguy]

I know of *NO* reason not to use the trust/LLC method.

A trust can't get an FFL, even a C&R. This matters if you live in / visit / move to Missouri.

An LLC costs money to form, typically has annual paperwork and often has an annual fee. And what happens if you relocate to another state?

 

[charliehustle10]

Sorry, can someone explain the trust, or limited liability method? I just starting research on SBR/BATF tax stamps...

 

[ScottsGT]

I got hooked on Stamp Collecting when my local SOT/FFL put a Walther P22 in my hands with a small can on it. I instantly fell in love and had to have one. 6 months later it was done. Then I got the SBR bug, and dropped my RRA lower off and filled out the Form 4 and ordered a Spikes 13" .22 upper (looks like a 11.5" since the barrel goes back into the upper) and ordered a pistol lower to play with it until the Stamp arrived back home. In the meantime, I found a new second hand 5.5" Spikes barrel on AR15.com's EE and built another upper. So now I have an AR pistol with a 5.5" bbl, a RRA AR with a 13" bbl and a .223 upper that is 12.5" and the silencer I can use on my .22LR uppers and the Walther.
Now my FFL is trying to talk me into a can for the .223 upper. Stamp Collecting is expensive!! (and fun too!)

 

[H2O MAN]

Sound suppressor

I went for the sound suppressor first and mailed my form 4s about a week ago.
My single suppressor will fit and function on my M14s, AK and my AR.
I have a Gen II POF lower sitting in the safe just in case I decide to build an SBR.

 

[MGshaggy]

I really think I would like to go the individual route first.

Wise move.

There are significant drawbacks to trusts and corps, and while most people who say 'just do a trust/corp.' are quick to point out the benefits of trusts and corporate ownership, they almost always leave out the problems & pitfalls associated with trusts and corps.

Most of my NFA items are owned by myself as an individual, but I have a few for which I've formed a trust. Although I'm a lawyer and wrote my own trust, I prefer individual ownership - it does require a little more at the outset (namely the CLEO cert.), but it avoids a lot of potential headaches and costs down the road. Unless you're going to hire a lawyer to write or review your trust, I'd highly recommend sticking to the individual route.

 

[H2O MAN]

...potential headaches and costs down the road...

Examples...

 

[TexasRifleman]

Examples...

Tax audits. PITA to have a trust or LLC audited. You'll likely come out fine with IRS, but it's still a royal PITA.

I was in a 4 member LLC owning an airplane once and it got audited.

Stupid IRS......

 

[H2O MAN]

A simple trust should not get audited.

 

[MGshaggy]

A simple trust should not get audited.

But they are coming under increasingly stringent scrutiny at BATFE. What was passable when Hutcheons was at the helm of the NFA Branch, is coming under far more scrutiny with the new director of NFA. Notice how a couple of years ago one could just send in the certificate of trust and get approved? Now you need the full declaration or it will get kicked out of the system.

Why? Because BATFE wants to see the terms in the trusts to make sure its a legal and valid trust. Too many people form trusts they think are valid but miss problems which would be obvious to a lawyer. I know; I've helped a couple friends who had technical problems with their trusts correct them before it became an issue with BATFE. And lets not understate the magnitude of the problem if BATFE determines you made a minor error that technically invalidates the trust - you would be in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to you, the NFA weapon can be declared contraband and seized, and you could face prosecution.

Furthermore, trusts are a creation of state law. If state law changes, or if caselaw related to trusts changes the legalities, you need to know it ASAP. How many people who created trusts with an off-the-shelf software program are going to keep current on the trust law of their state years after the trust has been formed?

If you can get a signoff, thats the best way to proceed. If you can't get a signoff, then move on to methods like trusts and corporate entities.

 

[taliv]

funny how every guy on arfcom who owns one class 3 item says trusts are awesome, but every lawyer i've ever talked to said they're a last resort

 

[H2O MAN]

Because BATFE wants to see the terms in the trusts to make sure its a legal and valid trust.

Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and then attempt get it by the BATFE?

 

[TexasRifleman]

funny how every guy on arfcom who owns one class 3 item says trusts are awesome, but every lawyer i've ever talked to said they're a last resort

Almost word for word what mine said.

Luckily I have a Police Chief that will sign.

I had to interview with the Chief once years ago when I bought the first NFA item after moving to this city. I already had a couple of things, and I told him that. He said "well I don't see the harm in it" and signed. Since then he signed without a meeting. He left office a few years ago and his replacement signs now too saying "well he signed, no reason I shouldn't".

I know that's somewhat rare but I think that simply asking for the signoff should ALWAYS come before looking into the trust/corp thing.

Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and attempt get it by the BATFE?

No one would intentionally but these "do it yourself" kits might not be complete and proper.

 

[MGshaggy]

Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and then attempt get it by the BATFE?

As Tex said, I doubt its ever intentional, but do you honestly think that matters to BATFE?

And nevertheless, some invalid ones will get through and get approved, but that doesn't mean BATFE can't later examine the docs and find it to be transfered to an invalid entity. And thats where the fun really starts...