SC to consider death penalty for repeat child sex offenders

[Mannlicher]

for my money, it would be the death penalty for the FIRST time a child was harmed in that manner.

Preachermam:

My take is that a death sentence is very expensive (far more so than life imprisonment), constitutionally "iffy", and controversial. Why not simplify matters? Make the penalties heavy for a first offence (15-25 years), and mandatory life imprisonment without parole for any subsequent offence.

well, if we can spend billions on everything else, protecting kids is a good think to spend money on. I see zero Constitututional issues with the death penalty. The problem with mandatory life, is that down the road, some liberal do gooder will want to get them out. Remember Tookie? Child molesters are almost ALWAYS repeat offenders. Letting one out is a guarantee that another child will suffer.

 

[Kurush]

I have a specialty in prosecuting sex crimes. Kids under-disclose, not over-disclose. They always tell less than what happened. They don't want to talk about it at all. Its not something they want to lie about.

Wow what an attitude. Children actually have an underdeveloped barrier between memories of their own visualizations and real memories. If you describe a certain event and then ask them if they remember it happening enough times, they will usually start to remember your scenario as an actual memory at some point. It's called false memory syndrome and it's caused many, many false sex abuse convictions. Also, kids have a tendency to want to say whatever they think will make the adult talking to them happy, especially if they feel intimidated by the situation.

As hard as it is to get one to make a story, its just not possible to get several to do it.

Totally false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capturing_the_Friedmans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria

Ceci, S.J., Huffman, M.L.C., Smith, E., & Loftus, E.F. (1994) Repeatedly thinking about non-events. Consciousness and Cognition, 3, 388-407.
Hyman, I.E., Husband, T.H., & Billings, F.J. (1995) False memories of childhood experiences. Applied Cognitive Psychology 9, 181-197.
Ofshe, Richard and Watters, Ethan Making Monsters: False Memories, Psychotherapy, and Sexual Hysteria, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1994
Pendergrast, Mark. Victims of Memory: Incest Accusations and Shattered Lives, Upper Access,Inc, 1995.

 

[Mannlicher]

Totally false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capturing_the_Friedmans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_car...abuse_hysteria

you have to come up with a more credible source than Wikipedia. Any one can make up any 'contribution' there they want. I don't trust anything they post.

 

[Selfdfenz]

Good points on both sides BUT we would not have to look thru too many criminal histories of the worst-of-the-worst without finding examples where the death penalty is right on the money.

The problem I have with the so-called life sentence is that it is certainly not a life sentence in many cases and we have murders and other assorted animals back on the street. Sometimes more than once.

Not saying I have complete faith that the legal system does not convict the innocent on occassion but I can't ignore LE gets the right bad guy many times, the evidence is not in question and the world is way better off without them permanently.

It's not my problem or societies problem to figure out how to feed and house a human being who have given ample proof they can't figure out that murdering peope, raping children etc periodically is way da-- unacceptable.

S-

 

[Daniel T]

Like threads on making marijuana legal, where the potheads come out of the woodwork, threads on child molesters invariably evoke posts from members who are, in all likelihood, child molesters.

Maybe you should quote some of the posts you think are from people "who are, in all likelihood, child molesters"? You know, just so we know who to look out for in the future.

 

[Kurush]

you have to come up with a more credible source than Wikipedia. Any one can make up any 'contribution' there they want. I don't trust anything they post.

Or maybe rather than taking a cheap shot at wikipedia you could look at the links in the articles and the journal publications I cited

 

[Zundfolge]

Not saying I have complete faith that the legal system does not convict the innocent on occassion but I can't ignore LE gets the right bad guy many times

I think thats the root of the disagreement here.

I don't trust government to do much of anything right, not least of which is criminal justice so I believe its best to err on the side of caution and NOT execute people (especially quickly).

If you throw some poor innocent bastard into jail you can always fish him back out, dust him off, give him a check and an apology and send him on his way (no thats not the ideal thing, but at least its possible). You execute someone and then find out later they were innocent and there's no recourse for the "victim" of the miscarriage of justice (not to mention the fact that for every innocent person thrown in jail or executed, a real GUILTY guy is still on the loose).

I have no moral or even constitution problem with executing murderers, rapists and child molesters (and agents of the government that violate The Constitution ) ... I just don't trust our criminal justice system to get it right enough of the time that we won't see a TON of innocent people put to death. Its bad enough with murder, but when you throw in the massive amount of emotion surrounding child molestation (as evidenced in this thread) you have an even greater chance of putting an innocent man to death.

There is also a MASSIVE number of cases (some sited in this thread) of people who are railroaded by well meaning police and juries who buy the myth that children don't lie about sexual abuse. There are a LOT of innocent people who would be dead today if some of you guys had your way.

Too many of you have this "We must do SOMETHING, even if its the WRONG THING!" attitude about this ... which is precicesly how the anti gun movement thinks about your 2A rights.

 

[orionengnr]

wow, this is a first.

But I have to say it.

Some of you scare me. Allowing yourself to be ruled by emotion, to make sweeping generalities involving life and death decisions...

I have read some of the threads about how many things have been mis-labeled "sex crimes" (public urination, mooning, that guy grabbing the girl by the arm) and the absolutely hysterical lack of logical thought... "it's for the children!"

My lack of faith in the .gov to do much of anything right (point of note--we no longer have a justice system but a legal system) the agenda-driven media and prosecutorial death squads (jury of your peers? done jury duty lately?) and the media-fueled hysteria.

I've been watching, I think it is, 20/20's ongoing series To Catch a Predator, which is great in principle, but has evolved into weekly (un)Reality TV and looking more and more like entrapment every week. But hey, it's for the ratings, um, I mean... the children!

 

[HKUSP45C]

(jury of your peers? done jury duty lately?)

Last I checked you are entitled to an impartial jury, not one "of your peers."

It is, however, difficult to find an impartial jury in such an emotional case as child molestation. Especially since the vast majority of the people I meet daily (you know, the plural of anecdote is data) seem to think that "if you're accused you must have done SOMETHING wrong and probably are guilty or at least should be punished for SOMETHING."

What happens when a child accuses you twice of touching him/her inappropriately? It's your word against theirs. Who is the jury likely to side with? The accused? The child?

Killing someone for such a difficult crime to prove in some cases, seems .... wrong somehow. I would feel differently if it was proven forcible/aggravated assault on a child, but peeing in your back yard where a kid could see you seems a bit tame for the needle.

With the high rate of re-offense most convicted child abusers have though, it seems there is a strong argument in favor of the law.

I'm just torn on this one.

It seems there's alot of ado about not much though, since death is merely a choice of the punishments and not mandated by the statute. At least, that's how I read it.

 

[db_tanker]

Swab him down and prep the solution, I say.


Living in the state that garners the most attention for the death penalty jades my oppinion somewhat...I feel that the appeal system is somewhat liberal...I think two chances are plenty...some of these folks get 4 and 5 chances to appeal...and then get off due to inept public defenders or underbudgeted prosecution...some might not agree with me, but you know...thats my oppinion.

MTCW
D

 

[Selfdfenz]

Zundfolge

I won't argue with some of your points but I believe it is much more of a statistical likelihood that a repeat offender will commit additional crimes after having achieved early release than it is that an innocent person will be convicted and even less likley they will be executed.

Problem A: I don't have the numbers and I'm too lazy to look them up but how many people were executed last year and what % were innocent and wrongly convicted. 100%, 50% 10%, even 1%. I bet it was not 100%.

Problem B: Another stat I'm too lazy too look up is the number of people murdered and the number of children sexually assaulted by repeat violent offenders out on parole, work release, ankle brackets last year.

I'm betting the innocent vicitm count in B is way bigger than A. Whats you guess. I'm inclined to think the % of victims in B that were innocent of exacerbating their rape or murder is very close to 100%.

Do you not agree that down grading charges, plea bargains, suspended sentences and early parole of repeat violent offenders have a profoundly negative net effect on society? Reread my post carefully as it contained the comment

the evidence is not in question

for a reason. Sometimes, like it or not, the evidence is not in question. The bad guys really, really do bad things to nice people.

I understand the dynamics and personal impact of the wrongly convicted but I also have great concern for the massive number of victims-that-never-should-have-been thanks to our turnstile prison system. Like I said, make a life sentence a real lifetime sentence and then we will talk, till then I think the best you and I can do is be part right and part wrong.

It's often said better to let go free some that are guilty than to promote a system that wrongly convicts one innocent man.
I can buy that logic.
What's the logical saying that covers the dead men, women and children killed by repeat offenders paroled or pardoned wrongly?????


S-

 

[MechAg94]

If you really think a Jury would decide for the Death Penalty due to innocent touching, you are smoking something. Didn't the original post say child molestation? It was not talking about changing diapers. No one would be for something stupid like that and no jury would convict. Adding the Death Penalty to the criminal code for child molestation would require some specific legal definitions on where it could be applied and for what criminal actions. We'll see how the laws are written.


In Texas, it is not the Government that decides on the Death Penalty, the Jury makes that decision based on a few questions they are required to answer. It can only be applied to murder if the murder was done in the commission of another crime or it was premeditated.

I don't care about the cost of putting a prisoner to death. Criminal punishment is not a cost/benefit analysis. It is about Justice. Justice isn't always cheap.

 

[Parker Dean]

Does anyone think that the death penalty for child molesting might not be all that good an idea for kids? What I'm saying is that the molester might not want to leave any witnesses and dead kids tell no tales. Some already think that the stiffness of penalties now has resulted in an increase in kids getting killed.