Scandium/ultralights, "full power practice" and WRIST DAMAGE - read this, y'all!

[Jim March]

I sometimes hang out on the www.sixgunner.com message board, and came across a post that made me stop and think:

http://forums.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605

Read it? Good.

John Taffin is the author of several books and numerous gun magazine reviews, specializing in big-bore revolvers. On his website is a series of his history and reloading notes for various calibers:

----------------
The 9mm Magnum
The .475 Maximum
The 475 Linebaugh
The .460 Rowland
The .45 Colt
The .445 SuperMag
The .44 Magnum
The .44 Special
The .44 Russian
The .41 Action Express
The .40 S&W
The 10mm
The .44 WCF (.44-40)
The 10mm Magnum
The .41 Special
The .30-30 Marlin 336 Cowboy
The .30-30 Single Shot Thompson Contender
The .38 Special
The Freedom Arms 353
The .30 Carbine
The .32-20
The .38-40
The .500 Maximum
The .500 Linebaugh

source: http://www.sixguns.com/tests/index.html
----------------

Why isn't this happening more often? Probably because most competitive shooters are running as close to "squib loads" as the rules allow. Silluette and bowling pin shooters are some of the only exceptions and I hope those guys are being careful.

But is the issue limited to the big-bore guys?

An interesting quote:

Sadly, Cherry Corners [gunsmith shop] has closed its doors as of the end of February. Bud suffers from carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists. One has been "repaired" and he has only 30% of his strength with it. When I asked if he had any idea of the cause he told me "shooting". Lots of it. Those of you who have one of the 625,000 L-frame 357's that Smith recalled, probably had it repaired and test fired by Bud. Something like half of them were shipped to him by S&W for repair. I did not realize just how important he was to Smith & Wesson until I called them about a warranty repair station and they told me that they opened two new ones here in Ohio to replace him, but thay don't do the magnum work. They still funnel that work to Bud. Only he has to use a Ransom rest for test firing now.

geoff kotzar

Source: http://yarchive.net/gun/revolver/s+w_probs.html

Now, in addition to a lot of full-house 357 in L-Frames, we don't know what else the guy was shooting. But it's still rather sobering, no?

Here's a doctor's view of the same subject:

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96injuries.html (plus the two links at the bottom of that article)

Jim's personal opinions follow:

First, I think we have a whole 'nuther reason to look twice at super-lightweight guns, no?



Second, even in steel L-frame and similar heft pieces (GP-100, Blackhawk, etc), the people who say "it's a magnum, shoot nothing but magnums in it!" are just maybe missing something: there's nothing "ubertactical" about being restricted to 22LR at age 55 because you're fresh out of wrist.

Given the extreme difference in your body's performance under combat stress, I've always had a sense that the "shoot nothing but full-power combat loads in practice" school of thought may be wrong. The reality is, if you have something like a steel J or K-class piece and practice mostly with 38s, the basics of trigger pull and sight alignment are identical regardless of kick. Hell, that's why we talk about dry-fire practice.

Somebody please explain to me why daily/weekly practice sessions of 50 - 100 38s followed by a cylinder or two of "full crack 'o doom Magnums" isn't workable, in light of the obvious medical evidence and cases turning up?

 

[Ledbetter]

This
Makes
Sense

 

[dude]

wimps!


fwiw- my ti .357 snub with 'ribber' grips shooting full power loads is no where near as bad as the .454 Ruger that I shot ONCE. .........not even a 1/4th of the recoil!

I do shot mostly 38s with cyl or two of magnums at the end of each training session

 

[Jim March]

John Taffin wasn't a wimp.

The TI 357s aren't as bad as the Scandiums. The Taurus TI 5-shot 357s weigh...jeez, lemme look it up...

If your gun is a 7-shot it's 19.9 oz, not at all unreasonable (similar to a steel S&W 5-shot). That's assuming you're talking 2" tube:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=617TB2C&category=Revolver

If it's a five-shot, 17.3 oz. Maybe a hair less for an exposed-hammer variant? Still not too psycho, although light for my tastes:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=651SH2C&category=Revolver

As you mentioned the ribber grip, I'd guess you probably have a 7-shot. The weight difference between that and the S&W "Riboflavin" 12.something-oz is just a whole 'nuther planet.

Mind you, with a 19.x-oz gun, I *still* wouldn't recommend constant practice with full house.

 

[Al Thompson]

IIRC, JT did an article in AH a couple of years back outlining his personal problems with his wrists.

Something to note.

 

[Greybeard]

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jul96injuries.html is a good article. Thanks for posting.

In retrospect, I suspect that 40+ years of slinging around baseball bats and hammers has helped keep me in shape for shooting handguns. And/or operating drills, screw guns, skill saws and shovels. In a society where keyboards are the predominant work activity or pasttime, I can see where the medical problems in the article above could be a greater problem.

When transitioning from S&W 11-ounce 342 (38+P) to 12-ounce 340 (.357) a couple years back, the first work done to the gun was the addition of Crimson Trace "overmoulded" grip. For me, it made shooting +Ps no problem and took most of the "sting" out of .357s.

The older lady (60 something) who bought my 342 is a personal trainer, with fairly strong wrists. She viewed the recoil as "tradeoff" for light weight as an "always" gun. Once she shot my 340 with overmolded (rubber) laser grip, she ordered one for the 342 the same day. Last time I spoke with her, she said X-mas gifts for the grandkids had set her back and she regretted not getting out to the range. But, she said in the meantime, she loved having the laser grip on the gun for dry fire practice at home. In her profession, I'm sure she will appreciate the article above. Gonna forward to her promptly. Again, thanks for posting.

 

[WESHOOT2]

DITTO TAFFIN

I have restricted my 'heavy' shooting to less than 20 rds per session, because I'm in for the long haul.

I've shot my chrono 5 out of 18 from flinch..........testing 'heavies' is my most dreaded job.

All my test wheels wear Pachmayr Decelerators, and re Ross Seyfried I may add a PAST shooting glove.


BTW, I got scars on both wrists

 

[dude]

Jim's comments>>

"The TI 357s aren't as bad as the Scandiums. The Taurus TI 5-shot 357s weigh...jeez, lemme look it up...

If your gun is a 7-shot it's 19.9 oz, not at all unreasonable (similar to a steel S&W 5-shot). That's assuming you're talking 2" tube:"


.....my 7 shot Taurus 617T .357 ti snub weighs in at just over 13 oz, it's all about grip design and porting

 

[Blueduck]

wimps!

The ability to take pain (or be so "bad" you don't even feel it) has nothing to do with whether your sustaining permanant damage via carpal tunnel or other joint problems or not. These may well come back and haunt you in much later years. Personally I'm 33 and would like to be able to be shooting well into my 70's, not washed up at 40 or 50...

 

[dude]

jeeese! the "wimps!" comment was a joke

.....what a bunch of old ninnys we have here!

 

[Mike Irwin]

Even target shooters who shoot very mild loads, but over long periods of time, often have wrist problems ranging from mild arthritis to some really severe calcification of the joints.

 

[M1911]

I've got RSI (and a bad back) from spending too much time at the keyboard. RSI is no joke. Not fun at all.

 

[dude]

My right wrist is already screwed up with CTS because of all the 'wrenching' I do on my job as an aircraft mechanic.......I mostly shoot fine compensated Dan Wessons though, so it's no big deal shooting

 

[BigG]

Dang! Anybody want to buy my Sc and Ti for cheap? Heck, maybe I'll just go throw em in the river!

 

[MoNsTeR]

The recoil won't do near as much damage to you as DA trigger motions.

Computer use 16 out of my 21 years is catching up with me, especially in my right wrist.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Carpal Tunnel syndrome hit me in both wrists a few years ago. It was because of added weight dips during my workouts, without keeping my wrists perfectly straight. It's definitely not fun. I can't afford another bout with it with my shooting going so well. I like to think .45 ACP isn't much out of a Kimber Ultra CDP or H&K USPc, but I'm sure it's taking it's toll as well. At least it's as unpleasant as I'm likely to get, as everything else on the menu is even less. My old "macho trip" days of 300 gr .44 Magnums, and Remington 300 gr .45-70 loads in the Contender are long gone. I wonder about Ross Seyfried even more than John Taffin. Though sometimes I think he enjoys pain. Anybody that enjoys shooting 8 and 4 bore rifles.................................

 

[Jim March]

Shoulders are a LOT more stout than wrists. But there's still a limit .

 

[Poohgyrr]

I remember Taffin writing something about heavy recoil messing up his wrist (s). I thought it might make sense, and I don't enjoy that kind of pain anyway.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Probably more to do with the luck of genetics than toughness or line of work. I know guys who have smoked a couple of packs a day for 50 years with no obvious problems, I also know guys who have died of lung cancer after a relatively short smoking life. I also had an uncle who had sausage and eggs for breakfast along with every thing else eaten being fried for probably all of his 92 years, another died of a heart attack after 45 years of life. If genetics are with you (or luck) it may never give you a seconds problem, but why gamble.
Gerald

 

[Jim March]

Gerald, I don't see it being genetics on these "mechanical damage" issues.

Most of you know I did 13 years in computer tech support. For a while, I started to get some carpal tunnel-like issues in my right wrist, but I tracked it to my bike's 1/3rd turn throttle and stiff return springs. I switched to lighter springs, greased the cables well and went to a 1/4-turn twist grip and the pain faded, hasn't come back.

 

[Poohgyrr]

All this recoil stuff has me wiping down my new to me 20 year old S&W M24 .44 Special I picked up a while ago. This is one fine caliber and revolver.

Anyone think the same about their .38 Special or .45 Long Colt??

Those who haven't shot one of these really owes it to themself to try one.

 

[Jim K]

I suspect that the folks who claim to be so tough that recoil can't affect them are swimming with Cleopatra (in de Nile, folks, in de Nile).

Even if the old timers can take it, those ultra lights are a concern in another way. I always recommend firing at least consecutive 200 rounds of the carry ammo before placing trust in a gun. While that could be reduced for revolvers, the fact is that few folks will shoot anywhere near that number of full house loads out of one of those brutal little guns.

Which means that 1) the gun will not be shown to be reliable and 2) the owner will not have had enough practice to be even reasonably competent unless he or she has done a lot of shooting with similar (but less punishing) guns.

I think we are going to see folks who have bought one of those as a first gun and fired maybe one cylinder or less before tucking it in pocket or purse. IMHO, not good.

Jim

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Hello Jim, might not be genetics, but some people seem to withstand repetitive motion problems better than others. My two older sisters are within 2 years of each other. Both do basically the same job (typing and computer) and one has trouble with CTS starting about 10 years ago while the other hasnt had a bit of problem. Maybe its in posture, maybe something else but some people seem to be able to make it thru life with no problems at all, while others end up with surgery their only option. Maybe its a difference in pain tolerance.
Gerald

 

[Jim March]

Gerald, when I was doing PC tech support I used to notice that some people "type harder" than others...they just use more pressure on every stroke.

Some people have smaller hands, requiring more reach and stretch.

They may have been using different keyboards. And as I found out with my bike, there's many other factors at play too!

 

[44]

I have a S&W 340PD J-frame. Great to carry. But the recoil smack from full-power .357 125gr rounds seems like it could do damage to a hand or wrist with enough shooting - but I don't know. I don't shoot very many of them. 44