Scary Haz-Mat

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@arch...I am picking up what your laying down but if by sticking a HAz-Mat sticker on the box(which I paid for) others could at least mitigate their risk according to what there idea of safety is.. Which I can see by this thread is all over the place..

Point is....I think the Haz-Mat fee is excessive but I am ok with paying it..My choice..Don't take my money for a service that's not provided and at the same time put others at risk. I get to choose who I do business with and regardless of how you feel about shipping primers I can feel anyway I wish with my cash. This company cut my feelings out of the picture and pocketed my cash so I feel that I have the right to be ticked off.. If they would have said to me hey, we will only charge you 115.00 and we will ship these on the down low to you..I would have said no thanks but that's just how mama brought me up.. They didn't...They broke the law and irregardless of all the other comments on this thread, this guy don't play that..YMMV...
 
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I usually order from Powder Valley or Natchez and they ALWAYS provide a special box that is double wall and the packaging inside is preventing the items from flopping around as it is shipped. A Has-Mat sticker and all that stuff as well. I am talking about 3-5 shipments a year for fifteen years or so at least. I do not like the fee either but at least they are doing what they are supposed to do when I pay them for the service. Unfortunate as it is there will always be somebody that thinks they are smarter than the rules-----then one time OOPS.:eek:

Those that think that Has Mat is just another way to skim off money are sadly mistaken. This is a safety issue.
 
Primers in their original containers are NOT hazardous. Primers are shipped to dealers in 5000 boxes, with many boxes of 5000 on wooden skids. Handled by fork trucks, hand dolly, and by hand. Regulations says no more than 25,000 primers can be transported in a private vehicle. As many as 750,000 primers may be stored in a building. Stacks of primers limited to 100,000 in one pile and separated by 15 ft. No more than 200,000 stored in a cabinet. They can't be too dangerous or they wouldn't allow private citizens to even buy them? Keep them in original packing and they are safe to handle.
 
Anything explosive is NOT ''safe''. It' is not 100% guaranteed safe like that box of diapers. They are safe to store, and they are safe to transport, but mishandle them, then let me know how safe they are when your missing body parts. I've seen it with my own two eyes. And honestly, for people to believe the fairy tales that they are ''safe'', is grossly negligent.

RD is absolutely right. The shipper should have sent it double boxed. The box he got was ''factory packaging". Not shipping. You can bet Winchester didn't ship them that way.

Oh, i've only made primers for over 10 years. But.. hey,,, what do I know.

I just know i have all my fingers. And regardless of what anyone tells me... i'm going to keep them..

i might need em to squeeze a trigger or two at the range every now and then.. :)
 
I'm not sure how winchester ships them to dealers but I do know how I expect them to be shipped to me.. They may very well be shipped to dealers in the 5000 paks stacked on pallets but EVERYONE involved in that transaction is aware of what's what..The ethical and safe way to sell and ship primers is how Powder Vally does it..Last time I try and save a few bucks on GB..

Again, no matter what your stance is on shipping primers via Haz-Mat is, I think that it's only fair to be able to decide for yourself. In this case, that was not possible due to the fact the company did not follow the law. Primers are not tinker toys and my advice to anyone reading this is to treat all aspects of reloading with respect.
 
Winchester double boxes. But they put multiple cases inside a box, then secure the boxes to a pallet.

I won't get into what is safe, because safety is relative to the risks accepted. Thus it can't be defined without having all the information.

Besides getting you po'd, the broke a couple of laws. One was fraud, another violation of the ATF regs. I would not hesitate to turn him in to UPS and ATF. It could well cause him to lose his license to do business, because the ATF usually involves state and local regulatory agencies in the investigation.
 
I am going to go with what the guy who makes primers for a living says.

I might be wrong, but for now I am going to guess he knows a little about what he is talking about.

Like said before, it's not just about how they handle the stuff. You also have to think about what and how much other Haz-Mat is in the shipment your primers are in. If that truck gets into an accident, it could cost some one their life.

You ask a fireman what they think about UPS trucks. Especially when their rolling up on scene of a car accident involving a UPS truck.
 
There's a lot of misinformation in some of these posts. A lot of things are "safe" to handle, but if mishandled they can be extremely dangerous. Gunpowder is "safe" but does anyone remember the couple of million pounds of deactivated artillery ammo powder that was stored out in the open up in north Louisiana a couple of years ago? Yes, powder is safe and we mere mortals are allowed to handle it, but stored out in the open does definitely make a difference.

The primer manufacturers do ship primers in shipping cartons especially made for them, which I believe are double walled corrugated cartons, but they might be triple walled. And there is documentation as to what is in the shipment all the way from factory to distributor, just in case of an accident during shipping. If there's an accident and a fire, the firefighters might like to know that there's 500,000 primers sitting in that tractor trailer that's on fire. The documentation is there for a purpose.

Also, when you do receive primers via the big brown truck, have you ever noticed that the driver removes a little piece of red and white banded edge paper from the package before he hands the box to you? That is part of the paper trail that DOT requires for every hazardous shipment. That's part of the reason why the fee is charged, and it does serve a legitimate purpose.

Thanks, but I will continue to deal with shippers who obey the law and keep everyone informed and safe.
 
Anyone who says the hazmat fee is just a way for shipping companies to skim more money and that hazmat packages simply ride right along with other packages, has no clue what they're talking about. I worked for UPS for about 3 years. First off there's the paperwork. It has to filled out by a "competent individual," who has been trained to know the regs. Then everytime it's loaded into a different trailer or truck, 2 copies of the paperwork must be pulled, one copy stays in the cab with the driver, one copy stays in a pocket at the back of the trailer. Hazmats, at UPS anyways, are required to be loaded in the last 10% of the trailer, so the loader has to keep track of them until they get to the end of the trailer, and keep hazmats 3-5ft away from one another. All that takes time, time=money. Let's not forget about the driver having to be hazmat endorsed and every person loading/unloading trucks needing to be trained on how to handle hazmats.

Oh, and if a hazmat busts open on a conveyor belt, well it really throws a monkey wrench into the works. Only a specially trained person can do the clean-up. I've seen it shut down an entire area for over an hour. That was about 12 trailers, averaging 800 packages per hour each, not getting loaded. 9600 packages getting loaded later than they could have been. That leads to unplanned overtime for probably 6-8 employees. One hazmat fee only covers about 2-3 employees working that overtime. They gotta make money just like any other business.

And as far as the OP's situation, I'd probably give UPS a call. They might like to know that someone is shipping products that could result in major fines. If a hazmat is found in a truck/trailer and there's no paperwork, someone's gonna be paying a big fine. And paying for hazmat shipping but not receiving it via hazmat shipment, someone is scamming you......and it ain't the shipping company.
 
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Here you see a flat of 5000 Tula Berdan primers. If you look closely you will see that this is not only how Grafs shipped them out, but also the distributor shipped them to Grafs like that as well. All the talk about repacking them is just that. The warehouse stores repack them to accommodate other items or to save money combining flats. If you buy just one flat there is nothing wrong with shipping it out as is.

Some people expect a warehouse worker to be better at designing packaging than the engineers at Murom, Winchester & CCI who are required to actually test how effective the packaging is.

It sucks that you did not get your hazmat sticker on your box. Want mine? :evil:

IMG_20141025_205202_438_zpsa407430e.gif

IMG_20141025_205254_129_zpsf2ee0b92.gif
 
Nope..you can keep yours buddy...I think your missing the point..:banghead: but several in a row before your post nailed it..Again, if my UPS guy saw that big red sticker on a box he would have the option to place it in what HE felt was a safe place in the truck..He and his family should have that right. I gladly paid money to afford him that right but alas some people just don't give a crap who they endanger if they can stick a few extra bucks in theor pocket..
 
To add to Kansas Sasquatch's post, all haz mats are loaded on the floor of the truck(not on elevated shelves), and loaders are trained to secure them on the floor by bracing them against other packages. They are not treated like every other package...I have 28 years of experience with this process.
 
Kansas Sasquatch has it detailed completely. This is on your shipper and you should demand a refund on the full shipping cost. Seeing your shipping container photos has enough clues and leverage.
 
I will wager that most of the ones that say these things are always safe have never bothered with insurance either as THAT is also a waste of money.:rolleyes: From experience------You can live in your house 365 days a year for 40+ years and nothing bad happens. Then one day--a fire, thief, meteorite, earthquake, sinkhole, flood, or whatever. That's what insurance is for. That one bad day. Think of Has Mat as special event handling/insurance. I am saying the safety issues are legit----I am a trained firefighter.;)

Nothing can be absolutely safe but the risks can be minimized with proper procedures in most instances.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I don't disagree safety is first but I do disagree as to how dangerous you are making primers out to be. That's all I was saying.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the point I was trying to make as well. Many (including the OP) were saying that primers had to be overwrapped. I thought a little counterpoint evidence would be helpful.

It is generally bad policy to claim something is more dangerous than it really is. It gives persons that would like to ban such activity leverage.
 
Wow. There are a lot of people missing the point here. Regardless of the relative safety of primers, the guy paid $27 for a service he did not receive. The seller essentially ripped him off and continues to keep the hazmat fee even after being informed of the error.

I would absolutely leave bad feedback. And in a bit of pure spitefulness I would inform the shipping company that this particular bad actor was skirting their hazmat policy.
 
It looks like people are either missing or ignoring that the seller is charging the hasmat fee then just pocketing it. He even went thru the trouble of covering up the word primer on the package.
 
As FROG0207 stated in an early post, EVERY hazmat shipment you receive is in a reinforced corrugated container (in their original packaging) I don't care who you order from. Look the next time you receive a hazmat package.
 
i dont know about this that and the other but i did notice one thing other day when i got a pound of powder and 10,000 primers that came in a big ass box with a whole bunch of packing and a big ass haz sticker,,,thats the first time ever, and i get a lot of stuff from UPS, that UPS has ever delivered before 8am. its usually 11 or noon. maybe coincidence but i like gettin my stuff first off the truck.

oh and yea i get the point and i'd be pissed if some assjack charged hazmat and pocketed as profit. would be the same as charging next day air and then sending as parcel post...arguing over safe or not dont change the fact the seller is a ripoff artist.
 
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Well it's been proven that the OP didn't get what he paid for and he feels that violations and others safety was put at risk. Other than posting here for us to either chime in with him or against what has been done to make sure it may not happen again? ? Some have offered what they would do, but what did you do. If only posting here you're doing nothing to fix your big safety issue.
 
@miller...Hey, thanks for chiming in...:scrutiny:..Just trying to discuss my situation.. I guess I could name the company who sent it and then let THR members decide if they want to use that company or not..I thought that was kinda tacky so I have just let this be a discussion.
 
I am not a safety expert and could only offer an uneducated opinion in that aspect. However, I am smart enough to see when a guy was ripped off. RN paid for a service he did not get...pretty simple.
 
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