scenario - bus stop, 2 thugs

[karhu]

Hipotetical scenario:

You arrive at a bus stop around 7pm. There is only one other person there too. Some minutes pass and two other persons come to the bus stop. They are well dressed and don't look suspicious to you. As they arrive to the bus stop, one of them stands one meter behind you ( thug Nr2 ); the other ( thugNr1 ) stops directly in front of you. (or one thug stands to your left and the other to your right).

You suddenly become aware of the possibly dangerous situation but before you move, "thugNr1" turns around and says "be calm, I have a knife… give me your wallet". He doesn't brandish his knife, but let you see pat of it underneath the sleeve of his shirt.

You have your prefered CCW handgun …

What would you do?

- Even if you are fast enough to draw, (and also in case of an autoloader: turn off the safeties or rack the slide) and shoot "thugNr1" - unless he dies instantly, he might as well have enough time and energy to cause you a mortal injury with his knife…
Besides, how to avoid the attack of "thugNr2" ? (possibly armed with a knife too)

In this case, the best option is just to give them your wallet?
(what if they find your gun - after searching you trying to find more money?)




.

 

[Duach Laidir]

(1) Never carry a pistol that can't be carried ready to fire.

(2) ? ? ?

 

[atlctyslkr]

I'll play the odds and draw my revolver. If I give them the wallet they may decide to see whatelse they can take. I feel confident that I'm quick enough to get the front guy. Better than average odds upon seeing the gun that one or both will run.

 

[Oldtimer]

Situational awareness. Don't allow yourself to be "sandwiched" between two strangers, no matter what! Always stand up straight, so that you won't have the appearance of being an easy prey. Mentally prepare yourself for either fleeing or standing your ground, and assess possible exit routes or locations for cover/concealment. Exercise your brain by thinking through possible distraction actions that you might be able to use. Think about the numerous other "weapons" you have, such as your hands, arms, elbows, feet, legs and knees. Assess your environment, for you might be able to safely make your way to the street....and be able to flag down a passing vehicle.

Several years ago, a young lady was accosted by a rapist while she was walking home from the local library. The street was dark, no traffic, and the suspect jumped from behind some bushes alongside the sidewalk. He pulled her into the bushes and threw her down on the ground, then told her what he was going to do to her. Instead of merely giving up, the young lady realized that she had a "weapon" of sorts. It was a sharp pencil, and she used it.
She stabbed the suspect in the face, directly above one of his eyes, and he quickly grabbed his face. That gave the young lady just enough time to run away, to a nearby liquor store, where she felt safe. She called the police, and that was where I came into the picture. My partner and I calmed her down, then placed her in the back seat of our police vehicle, and we drove through the entire area looking for a man with a pencil wound on his face. Unfortunately, he wasn't located.

 

[HankB]

This scenario is an argument for pocket carry . . . shuffle to the side so BG#2 isn't directly behind you, mouth something like "OK, be cool, here, I don't have much but you can have it . . . " BG thinks you're reaching in your pocket for your cash, and out comes something that goes "bang." So shoot #1, continue to backpedal to the side, and if BG#2 gets closer, shoot him, too.

. . . young lady was accosted by a rapist . . . young lady realized that she had a "weapon" of sorts. It was a sharp pencil . . . She stabbed the suspect in the face, directly above one of his eyes,

She should've aimed just a little bit lower . . .

 

[AJAX22]

in that situation I would give them the wallet while moving to a more advantageous position, (out of knife range)and acting scared, then as soon as they lower their guard or are out of knife range I'm opening up on them.

not so much to save the wallet, but to prevent them from harming the next person.

the real question is whether or not to stick around afterwards, its awfuly tempting to avoid the legal fees and throw the barrel/firing pin/extractor off a pier on the way home, or melt it with a cutting torch. hold a bbq for the cloths and shoes you were wearing and spend some time at the gun range the next day to explain any residual GSR.

If you don't have a CCW, is it worth it to draw and fire?

 

[crofrog]

Move. Once off the line of attack you have more options. Including continuing to run or drawing why moving off the line of attack and shooting the one who displayed the weapon.

I second the don't get sandwiched approach as well. I take public transportation a fair amount as part of my commute. I always stand away from the edge of the platform (I use trains). I also stand in ways that if they want to get close to me they are either coming to talk to me or are up to no good.

 

[tepin]

There is a good chance that you can reply "OK. No problem", reach for wallet and BOLT! Do a side-step and run. If his knife isn’t in-hand and pointed at your belly, you *should* be able to run. If the guy in front isn’t at ready, the guy behind is probably just for intimidation. As you are running put your hand on your gun and take a peek behind you if possible. If being chased, pull at low-ready so they see the gun and the attack should stop at this point. Avoid shooting on the street at all costs; too much risk. Exhaust all other options first. Anytime you pull or brandish a firearm in public you would be wise in calling 911 to report the incident as soon as possible. Ideally you want to be the first to make the “man with gun” call. If you are with wife, family etc… give up the wallet.

My own personal rule is to keep a 10 foot ring of "personal" space around me. Granted this isn’t always possible at crowded bus stations etc… One thing I have noticed when traveling abroad is that Europeans and Asians don’t seem to have personal space requirements. They like to get in your face when talking etc… On the other hand, most Americans like personal space and have *some* personal rules about how close someone gets. Here at work I will take a step or two back if someone gets closer than 3 feet from my face while talking. On the street with strangers, I would guess the personal space requirement’s for most people is around 6 to 10 feet (just guessing but feels right to me). At an empty bus stop with two guys headed straight for me, I am already moving around to figure things out. Being aware and alert is the best form of self-defense.

 

[Preacherman]

HankB has it - pocket carry is the answer here. That's why my BUG is never a mouse-gun, but always at least a .38 Special or 9mm (often a .45, now that Taurus has their PT145 and PT745 out): and it's always in my pocket. If I can't safely draw my main weapon without giving away my intention, I can reach into a pocket easily enough - and I practice enough with it to hit what I'm aiming at.

 

[rustymaggot]

if i lived in an area where things like that happen id go back to carrying two wallets. id bring the near empty wallet out and throw it one direction and run the other. if he ran after me instead of going for the wallet then id bring the gun into play. if he chases me when the wallet is up for grabs then he means me harm and that ups the ante.

 

[Taurus 66]

Pffft ... knife schmife!

I'd jump up and double 360 these guys in the head with my size 11.

What!...... It's possible. I saw it done on the Power Rangers.

BTW, am I there to catch the bus or just have fun with a few thugs?

 

[v8fbird]

I think if I had two attackers on two different sides, and I had my gun drawn, I would prefer to be moving towards the one I was shooting and away from the one I wasn't.




That's just "hipotetically," of course.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I've thought about things like this often. My plan of action has always been to act as if I'm giving in to their demands, and fire at the BG through my own clothing before fully drawing the pistol if given the opportunity. Ex., carrying in a jacket or pants pocket, act as if you're fumbling around for your cash, and shoot thug #1 before removing your hand from your pocket. This shouldn't be a problem at point blank distance.

At this point, if thug #2 isn't running away screaming, you know what to do.
Unfortunately this isn't really possible with a lot of holster/clothing-style combinations. I do think you could shoot thug#2 directly behind you through a shoulder holster, while 'reaching for a wallet' in your breast pocket, then deal with thug#1. If not, I would probably throw a suckerpunch first, then draw with the other hand while thug#1 tried to recover, if he was still on his feet. Not likely given my fighting experience.

I have been studying multiple forms of unarmed SD since childhood - but it's something I think everyone serious about self-defense should do no matter what age, size, sex, etc. That BS 'cover-with-one-hand-and-shoot-with-the-other' technique they teach at CCW class might work, but it might not. Knowing how to think on your toes in a physical confrontation is definitely an asset to you in this type of situation. Learn how to fight. If so, you'll more than likely never find yourself in this exact situation. You'll see it coming and adjust to give yourself the edge.

IMO, Whatever your options, carry your gun ready to fire, and use it if confronted by an individual with a weapon, even if it means injury in the process. Especially a little knife. It might hurt, but it's not very easy to kill someone with a knife unless you've trained in how to fight properly with one. If you can defend yourself at all with your hands, you can probably avoid taking a serious wound to the neck or heart from a head on attack w/a small knife. Chances are you'll survive. Make sure the BG doesn't.

The only time considering giving in is when you're confronted with another gun, and even then you only let it go so far before you fight. If the situation calls for you to simply give up your wallet/money, then do so and go home to your family alive. If it goes past simple robbery (as in, "get in this car with us," or something along those lines) they're probably intending to kill you anyway.

 

[isa268]

this scenario is something i think about often with gas prices being what they are i try to ride the bus to work as often as i can.

at work i carry a Kel-tec p-11 in a pocket holster. if approached by anyone with a weapon asking for my wallet i'll say don't hurt me in my best sheeple scared voice while reaching for the kel-tec in my front pocket. i'd probably just shoot as soon as i clear the pocket or from the pocket if i could.

 

[WolfMansDad]

The time to start analyzing this situation is when you arrive at the bus stop, not after you have let yourself get outmaneuvered and caught. By the time one of them gets behind you, the fight is all but over. At that point, all you can talk about is either a last ditch, desperate gamble, or surrender.

Arrive at the bus stop, where one respectable-looking individual is already waiting. Look him in the eye and say "Good evening," then move to where there is a barrier behind you to wait for the bus. This can be done very casually and doesn't have to look suspicious. When his friends arrive, look them in the eyes as well. You may greet them verbally or not, depending on how you read the situation, but you must convey to them that you are alert and unafraid. You don't have to be aggressive, and you should never act fearful, just polite, confident, and alert. If they decide to go ahead with the robbery at this point (most of the time, they won't), challenge them AS SOON AS THEY START TO MOVE INTO POSITION. Put your hand on your piece, but don't draw, and say to the one trying to flank you, "Where are you going?" At all times, you must maintain doubt in their minds as to whether or not they can pull this off. The vast majority of the time, they will back down.

I've done this many times (learned it from karate training) at bus or subway stops. The only differences are that the "youths" looked positively prison-bred, not respectable at all, and in every case I wasn't carrying.

 

[crofrog]

I would prefer to be moving towards the one I was shooting and away from the one I wasn't.

Why would you move torwards someone with a contact weapon? Moving to the side moves you away from both of them.

 

[v8fbird]

"Why would you move torwards someone with a contact weapon? Moving to the side moves you away from both of them."

Because I would want to be moving as directly and quickly as possible AWAY from the other one.

 

[Sean85746]

Large cup of HOT beverage carried in your weak hand.

I use this at the mall when I am there with my wife and daughter. I don't drink coffee, BUT a faceful of HOT beverage will allow you time to act, and react.

Not many people recognize a drink as a potential weapon.

SPLASH...DRAW.

If you think it sounds funny...try it next time you are shooting.

Set up a sillhouette target at CLOSe range, use a cup of water.

Splash it from your weak hand onto the target while drawing your gun, and fire into the target.

You will be surprised at how fast you can get it done.

Remember...human instinct is ALWAYS to protect the eyes.

 

[Cromlech]

Personally, I would act as if I am getting them my wallet, then try to bolt off between them as fast as possible.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Better be careful about this one...

Put your hand on your piece, but don't draw, and say to the one trying to flank you, "Where are you going?"

Without going into too much, or turning this into a different conversation, I'd like to say that I agree with most everything WolfMansDad, except this. I wouldn't be that obvious or verbal before an altercation took place. I would watch and see what was going on, adjust, and maybe do something like that when it became obvious these guys were trying to commit a crime against me. I wouldn't however, want to say something like that or posture myself in that manner towards a person who might very well be minding his own business.

When I'm not working as a carpenter, I dress in hip-hop style clothing. I'm big and black (this is not about race. I'm simply speaking from my own personal experience and point of view to make a point). I have tattoos. I'm young. I probably look like 50 Cent or something to someone middle aged. That's all that narrow-minded people see, and people mistake me for a thug more often than I care to think about. Actually, it kind of upsets me, but that's the way the world works. Young people who dress a certain way are stereotyped (I also recognize that the gentlemen in this scenario were 'well-dressed', but certain people can look even more sinister in a suit than they do in baggy jeans and boots).

Say this person is standing in front of a trash can, and I need to throw something away? What if I have a legitimate reason to get behind a person or approach in their direction? If that person decides I look suspicious, puts their hand on their pistol and asks me where I'm going?

That person and myself are going to have some very serious problems...

At the point someone puts their hand on a weapon and addresses me suspiciously or negatively, I'm considering that person a deadly threat. I won't be thinking "maybe my appearance makes this person uneasy...", and to be frank, I wouldn't care anyway at that point if that were the case or not. We all know what happens then. In this situation, it would all be completely unecessary, but one of us would be shot. You could avoid a lot of (possibly unnecessary) trouble by not speaking prematurely. Actions speak louder than words.

If the same thing happens without the verbal confrontation, I know what that person is thinking and the situation can be resolved with a nice "Hello," or "Excuse me."

Besides, if the BG knows you have a gun, he might just back off, act like an innocent, and then put one in the back of your head when you reholster and calm down. Just something to think about.

 

[crofrog]

Put your hand on your piece, but don't draw, and say to the one trying to flank you, "Where are you going?"

The easier solution to this problem is to simply move. If they are trying to box you in, and you move before the ambush is setup they have to adjust on the fly. If they follow your movement and adjust so as to continue with the same plan you know something is fishy and it might be time to get it on. Then you can start esclating verbally.

 

[WolfMansDad]

Very interesting and thoughtful post, Cousin Mike. Thanks!

There are a lot of "hip-hop" looking kids in my neighborhood. They have never given me any trouble, and I have never felt personally threatened by them. (No "bus-stop" scenarios.) However, I know they buy and sell drugs (I've seen them doing it, and getting high), and I've overheard some of them talking about shooting and killing people. Don't know if that's serious or just talk, but I'd like to find out.

I would very much like to know more about them, i.e. their names, if the're really thugs or just bored suburban kids, and especially how they perceive me, but I've never been able to make much headway with them. I greet them politely, and sometimes I get a nod in return. Sometimes they just turn away. I am on speaking terms with all the rest of my neighbors, but I just can't seem to strike up a conversation with these guys. They are black (teens and twenties); I am white (late thirties); and our neighborhood is a pretty thorough mix of white, black, and asian, with one mexican family.

Any thoughts? Most people I talk to here just say, "They are scary. Run away!" but I remember what it was like being a disreputable-looking kid. I'd like to show these kids some ordinary human respect, and I'd like to get to know my neighbors as well. Any ideas on how best to approach them, and how they might view such an approach?

 

[Cousin Mike]

WolfMansDad, first and foremost, welcome to THR!

I am very happy to hear that not only are you not threatened or intimidated by these guys, but that you speak to and treat them with respect. That tells me that you tend to think outside the box, just like I try to. Sounds like some of my experiences at work seem similar to yours in your neighborhood.

The construction industry is dominated by older white guys - no big secret there. Most of these guys, to ME, look like people I was always told to stay away from. Some fly rebel flags in their trucks or have them tattoed on them. Some are just really country types who to me, look like racists. One thing I've noticed - when I prejudge people, I usually find that I was dead wrong about that person once I get to know them. I've had one-too-many older, white gentleman with rebel flag tattoos (or what I considered to be a "hick-ish" style of dress or speech) turn out to be some of the nicest, smartest people I have ever met to continue basing my opinions of people on their looks. Then there's the fact that a lot of people who look and dress exactly like me are jerks that I'd want nothing to do with. People are just people, and most people are jerks. That's basically how I see it.

The guys in your neighborhood, particularly the young black guys, probably just have no idea what to make of you speaking to them or trying to be nice to them. Trust me, it's not that often you find a white guy/lady who will walk through a crowd of young black dudes in an urban setting, and politely say "Hello," on their way through. That in itself is going to be pleasantly surprising to a guy like myself.

The decent guys in that crowd are the ones who speak or nod back to you when you speak. Believe me, they've noticed that you're not afraid of them and that in itself will gain you a great amount of respect from them, especially if they are real thug-types. If you continue to speak to them politely in passing, you'll find that a conversation will just take place one day. Maybe about basketball or some other sport, maybe about something you never knew you had in common.

The ones who do not speak to you are the wannabe tough-guys. Anyone who doesn't speak to another human being when spoken to is simply rude, and obviously not raised to be curteous to others. No need to be afraid of them, but IMO there is also no need to desire to befriend them.

I'd like to show these kids some ordinary human respect

That, in itself, is the best way to meet and get to know new people of any race/religion/culture if you ask me. We're all a hell of a lot more alike than we are different.

Just don't OVERDO it. lol.. Nothing worse than the older white guy who tries to communicate with you in "shizzle-talk." Not only is it self-defeating, it's insulting, and we don't really talk like that.

 

[vynx]

I agree with what WolfMansDad said about looking them in the eye and letting them know you know they are there.

I would bet money that I have "stopped" at least two attempted muggings by doing just that. Once, I was walking late at night and two guys started pacing me on the other side of the street and slightly behind me, then one guy crossed over to my side of the street behind me.

I had a knife in my pocket and wasn't about to run so I justt stopped and turned and faced them, looking right in their face. They looked at me for a few moments then turned around and walked back. Both guys were bigger and younger then me but they just lost the element of surprise.

I think that most criminals want to hit you from behind when you aren't expecting it - they do not want a "fair" fight and they don't want to have to visit a hospital. I wasn't in a good mood (think I had recently broken up with a GF and was actually a bit pissed) and I would have fought back - they probably would have won or maybe we all would have lost but i wouldn't just give in. Sometimes you have to accept that you are going to get hurt if you fight back, and sometimes it is worth the hurt. That attitude alone backs off some people.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

My method's as silly and reckless as I am, but I've only been in one mugging situation where a nonchalant "**** you" didn't send the perps looking for less scrappy prey.

Ten to one otherwise most perps will beat feet at the sight of a gun, especially if they only have a knife. Only somebody who is truly desperate or under the influence of something will stick around to try to beat your wallet out of you after he discovers you're armed and not complying.

For most, even people who we'd think of as "dumb" criminals, the risk simply isn't worth it. Attempted muggings get minimal police attention but violent muggings, shootings, stabbings, murders certainly do. Crooks know that a lot of murders get caught, and they know that if they show up with a gunshot wound at a hospital they're going to have to explain it, and the whole nine yards.