Scenario - kidnapping attempt

[karhu]

Lets say you have a very good job, big house, 5 cars… (wife, kids… )

In the city where you live, there has been many kidnappings… small bands of BGs that kidnap wealthy persons and ask for ransom.

From the evening news, you know that the ending of the kidnappings is uncertain... in the majority of cases people go back safely to their families after paying the ransom… but in other cases, the victim had been found dead even after the family payed the ransom… and in other cases when the victim resisted to be kidnapped, BGs killed the victim immediately.

You are reasonably concerned that someone might try to kidnap you as well, but you decide that you are not going to be a prey… so you get a CCW permit and carry everyday (here you can choose to carry only one gun, maybe also a BUG, possibly also a tactical light, knife, pepper spray, stun gun… extra ammo) and you have hired a bodyguard too. (you can choose his weapons).
Besides, you keep some weapons in the car - just in case.

Many months pass and nothing unusual happens, but one night on your way home (btw, your bodyguard is your driver also and your car is not bulletproof); your car is on the right lane and waiting for a traffic light. There is one car at your left and one car behind you ( "car Nr1" ). - so far, nothing unusual...

Suddenly, a car crossing the street in front of you ( "car Nr2" ), stops perpendicular to you preventing your car to move forward. (Imagine that your car and "car Nr2" are in a position similar to the letter " T " ).

Then, "car Nr1" (the one behind you) advances, bumps your car and stops. Immediately, 3 BGs come out of "car Nr1" and other 2 BGs come out of "car Nr2" .

You haven't seen yet what weapons the BGs are carrying, but in other kidnapping attempts, usually BGs use pistols and long guns (SKS)

The driver of the car at your left (innocent bystander?) seems to panic and just lay down over the front seat of his car)


Questions:

What weapons and ammo did you choose to carry for you?
What weapons and ammo did you choose to carry for your bodyguard?
What weapons and ammo did you choose to keep in the car?
Why did you choose those?

Now, what you and your bodyguard are going to do? Your skills and your weapons are up to the task?

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Btw, to make this scenario more interesting… I will say that this type of kidnappings are not hypotetical but happen in real life (two cars, 4-6 BGs, pistols and long guns). The whole act lasts less than 5 minutes. The only difference is that usually the victim is alone (no bodyguard to help)

So far, I'm unaware of a successful attempt to repel the kidnappers.
There was one case when the 'victim' realized his dangerous situation a few seconds before. He tried to escape with his car but crashed against a wall (or crashed against other car?). Anyway, BGs opened fire, bullets passed through the car and 'victim' was DRT.


.
(sorry for my english. As you have noticed, I'm not a native english speaker)

 

[steveracer]

Vehicle choice matters more than weapons here.

Call Support Vehicles International. They make a Suburban with a 4' sunroof and GE minigun onboard. 1250 round belts of .308 at over 6k per minute. Sounds like the answer to this problem.
Seriously, armored vehicles are very expensive, but work. SKS rounds are good intermediate cartriges, but will lack the one shot smack required to penetrate really good armor.
You need to hire a bodyguard who knows the area and can really drive, and you need a vehicle with enough juice to shove the blocking cars out of the way. We're talking 700 lb/ft of torque turbodiesel truck. Think four door diesel Silverado or Ram, 4WD. These will make most sedans really wish they didn't try to get in your way. The Diesel block is big and heavy, and diesel is less likely to burn and/or blow if burning gunpowder makes its way into the tank/fuel lines. You can put cigarettes out in most diesel.
Now, weapons: You want really heavy ammo for the driver. I'd think 10mm Glock or Witness pistol with 15 round mags. His go-to gun would be a semiauto shotgun with 3" slugs. These are great for stopping fights in a hurry, and the slugs will penetrate intermediate barriers very well.
NEVER SIT DIRECTLY BEHIND THE DRIVER!! The three things that kill a vehicle quick are: driver, tires, engine. The engine should be ok if you pick the right one. The driver is the next best target. If you are right behind him, you could get hit by the .338/.416 that exits him still supersonic. If he's down, you can at least try to drive, and of course the three loaded 12 guages in the vehicle will be handy.
You should spend the money on the type of tires they use for rock climbing. These have a rim that bolts the tire to the wheel, making it stay on when the tire is deflated. The sidewalls are very tough, four-layer kevlar, and will stop pistol rounds. These work ok when "flat, and will keep the truck high enough to hop curbs.
First and foremost, you should move out of that city.

 

[sm]

karhu,

Welcome to THR!
Your English is fine - heck I am from what we call the "South" here in the US , I am the one having trouble with English

steveracer,

Great Post! I agree with Vehicle is more important than Firearm and Ammo.
I appreciate your complete post with suggestions, referrals , strategy and tactics.

I would like address from a different perspective - not having a better vehicle, or even driver.

-Never be Predictable.
-Need to Know Only
-For Your Eyes only
-Passwords and Codes
-Contingency Plans
-Known Trusted Persons
-Never a Front Wheel Drive Vehicle.
-Keep Mouth Shut
-Complacency Kills
-Keep Enemies Close, Family and Friends Closer
-Cheat

There are some things , the fact is go sit in a Restuarant, one without Alchohol being served and listen to regular folks.

You will hear the folks speak in public, bank account numbers, what time they leave for work, take lunch, any appointments, where the wife will be playing tennis, playing Bridge, having Salon Appt, where the kids go to the Dentist, alarm code given for Maid to allow herself in over the cell phone, which you also will hear the cell phone number, where the hidden key is under fack rock in landscape design...

Times of Appointments and where, how many days out of town, and where staying...

I used different routes to travel to the office business reasons. Not uncommon to swap cars with a trusted friend or there may or may not have been avail to me other vehicles to use.

If I told someone , whether phone, or postcard, or letter I would be dropping by Tues around 1pm, that may very have meant I would be there on Monday around 5pm or Wed at 10am.

Some folks I dealt with if they saw some letters on that card , they knew the code and knew what time. I / we would call and say " the place where your wife lost an earring, at "EGRX" - do you have any idea where and what time we are to meet? We did.

I told nobody nothing. Only the persons that I trusted and needed to know for their part. Meaning if met with you and was going to meet someone else - I never said whom or where or what.

I had trusted persons I could "coordinate with". Heck it might be a trusted UC LEO and me giving a "bum" money. A Beat Cop, being asked where to get a good sandwich, or a LEO pulling me over with the pretense my brake light was acting up and " I might need to check that out and there is auto parts store over by..."

Vehicles - set the mirrors where you can actually see what is behind you and more "blind spots".
Never get below a half a tank of gas.
Leave enough room between and car in front, especially at stop lights/ signs.
Always leave an out.
If the car behind is too close, be suspicious.
Take a circle of lefts or rights, and see if followed.
Take note of cars dropping back and others taking their place [leap frog]

Directions being asked by the car next to you at stops, or folks pointing at your vehicle to indicate "you have a low tire, or car trouble".

When in doubt, find a LEO in a parking lot, or Fire Station or any lighted gathering of folks. Know where State Police / Highway Patrol stations, sub stations are off the highway...just pull up and lay on horn, or just go in and ask for help.

Know how to break out your vehicle trunk, have tools to do so. Yes while many do have emergency release cables, BGs will cut these and one will have to know how to break out manually.

Pay attention to other makes and models of vehicles, especially rental cars, and how one can get out of them...heck a $2 el cheapo tool I have that is ~ 1.5 inches "square" when folded , unfolds to be a pair of pliers, a phillips and flat head screwdriver at the end of "handle" - I can take that and get out of quite a few car trunks. I actually look at trunks, and yeah climb in there and break out of them...once I study them.

Guns? I am one that has gone out and used various wrecked cars to shoot into and out of them. Shot windshields from outside in - and inside out.
For instance, bullets react different with the window rolled down into the door that when it is not.

I like low pressure rds to shoot inside a vehicle like .44 spl , 45ACP, .38spl.
One thing about a Snubby Revolver is no worries about knocking slide out of battery if a scuffle ensues in the vehicle, very hard for BGs to get ahold of gun.

Now one car gun I used was a .44 mag, full house loads, this was for getting a car that was trying to bump me off the two lane blacktop, and maybe they had fired shots....practice shooting weak handed, while driving. Speed up, tap brakes and let the BGs come up again and go for the engine compartment.

Tricks for keeping a shotguns handy when staying places...
Trusted folks I knew and where the office guns where...
Been known to arrive in one vehicle and leave out the back door in another...and repeat this a half dozen times in a day...

There may or may not have been features such as flipping a switch and rear lights going out, including brake lights, so a BG could not see me, any brake use as I evaded....headlights might "fail" , and inside lights set to not come on.

Meaning , not trying to outrun, just out drive/ manuever, take a turn they cannot see and ....I dunno maybe a side road out in the country ...road leading to a plant, factory...

Take a defensive driving course. Get a "wreck" that is drivable somewhat and practice driving and keeping the vehicle "operable" - like demolition derby drivers have to do - even if rammed or being rammed. Use Cardboard boxes, then find a washer or dryer in the junk yard and practice "ramming" to get out of a tight spot.

Drive over wood to simulate curbs, sidewalks...just look at a street and see what all is out there...

Pound a stick in the ground or actual metal like signs use and get an idea how a vehicle reacts running into one...

You will find out real fast Front Wheel Drive vehicles are Prey Cages.

For a real fun time, do this with a front wheel drive Minivan...LOL

Good reason LEO and all hate these front wheel drive vehicles...Prey Cages.


Think like a thief, and use that against the thief.

Other "vulnerable" areas include being called an alarm is going off, a child is hurt, relative been in car wreck...

If the person asks me how my cat was doing, or mentioned my cat was at the vet...one code meaning danger. I hate cats.

---

Seriously - Listen /Watch people around you.

People set themselvesup as Prey way too much. They advertise even without speaking words.

Just watch folks going into and out of the grocery store. Watch the parking lot. You will see folks getting purses out of trunks, or putting expensive looking briefcases in them. Go inside and you will be able to find out all sorts of stuff...including what is in that briefcase and if not careful the combination to that briefcase.

Btw the combo was 1,3, 5 and had his mom's jewlery in it he was supposed to be taking directly to bank safety deposit box ...mom has a 9 ct plat dia braclet, a dia Bulova watch, and 2 ct plat dia necklace...

He was blabbing on the cell phone to his wife, and "announced" all this (good thing I was the only one in produce section) and he also shared what his wife's schedule would be.

And this is just while I was getting Produce...

Hope he didn't get popped...

See sometimes family does not "mean to" , but illegal ears can hear where you are going, or "freinds" don't mean to but in a Sunday School class " Mildred keeps her nice jlry in a Cereal Box ...and sonny boy has a fake alligator briefcase and will take Mildred's jlry to Bank of Stupid on Any street at 10am on Wed"

Freda hears this and shares with the ladies at the Hair Salon...

Bernice the beautician has a /neice nephew into dope and all and /she he hears this...
Guess where neice /nephew will be with illegal friends ?

Waiting to follow sonny boy leaving mom's house - or waiting for house to be empty...

I know, I had a customer lose her jlry - kept in a cereal box in the kitchen - more than once btw.

 

[WolfMansDad]

Lets say you have a very good job, big house, 5 cars…

Already a fantasy situation for me!

Seriously, one of the first rules of personal security is "don't look like a target." Don't advertise your wealth. Doing so only increases your chances of being selected as a victim by the bad guys.

If I absolutely had to look rich (if I were a big-shot CEO or lawyer who had to project power as part of my job, for example), I would consider moving to a safer city.

To engage in both behaviors (showing off your wealth and living in a place where that puts your life at risk), just seems reckless to me. You are placing yourself in harms way, and then hoping you can shoot your way out of trouble when it comes. Not smart.

 

[Low-Sci]

Sounds like a common scenario from Mexico City, actually. Where they make armored vehicles to repel exactly that sort of situation. Some of them can even dispense mace outside the car just by pressing a button on the dash. If I'm rich enough to have five cars, better believe I'm gonna have one of those.

If I'm five-cars rich, I'm also going to ensure that my bodyguards have SBR stamps. They'll be carrying very short-barrelled AR type weapons, and .45- caliber sidearms. And the bodyguard who is driving me is going to be paid a premium for knowing how to not get into that situation on the road.

And, why not, another car with a couple more bodyguards in it to tail the car I'm riding in. They see trouble start, they respond from where the bad guys aren't thinking about.

 

[ball3006]

If your driver is any good.....

he will stomp on the gas and plow his way through and escape. If you are afraid of being kidnapped, you should have been armed. If you could afford a driver/bodyguard, how come you only have one during a threat situation? I bet you take the same route every day too.........chris3

 

[karhu]

Hi,

interesting replies.

btw, this is also a hypothetical scenario for me. I'm not rich, I don't have a bodyguard and I don't live in a city where these type of crimes occur...

I described the scenario due this type of crime do happen (very often) in real life in many parts of the world. "Low-Sci " commented that it happens in Mexico City for example.

Anyway, I added the bodyguard in the scenario to increase the odds of the 'victim'.

Btw, in some parts of the world, these type of crimes can happen to any person with a job or even students. (it is not required that the person has a car - sometimes the 'victim' still lives in his parents' house)

Thugs want to make easy money and only kidnap the victim for a few hours. Enough time to get money from credit cards, debit cards and 'visit' the victim's apartment.

------

Police recommends:

- situational awareness (this is obvious)
- do not carry a gun (?)
- cooperate with kidnappers - to protect your life even if you lose your money.


I hope someone here can come up with a better idea.


.

 

[hso]

Some of the Mexico City cab kidnappings I've read about can be as brief as a few minutes and as cheap as a mugging (wallet/cash/cards). Others become much more expensive.

If the vast majority of kidnappings in this setting don't result in anyone being killed you have to weigh the ability to escape against the potential for being killed.

Since the preventative measures that SM has outlined have failed for some reason you need to focus your efforts next on being able to crash out of the situation before weapons have to be used. The vehicle should be large and rigid enough to ram though a simple road block. It should also fit the setting. If a SUV fits, use it. If it’s a Mercedes 4-door, then that. Regardless, it should be able to ram. SM’s point about front wheel drive being bad is that if you run up on something that takes your front tires off the ground even a little you can’t drive off of the “post” nor can you steer. Rear wheel drive will give you a better chance to drive over a street sign and not get high-centered. Run flat tires are recommended as well. The driver should be prepared to crash through by cutting to the left or right and aiming at the point in front of the front wheel or behind (preferably) the rear wheel of Nr2 and pushing through (consider the majority of the vehicle weight is concentrated in the engine and you should treat it as the pivot point for your crash). Driving up on the curb/sidewalk/shoulder to get around should be used. You should develop the habit of letting the driver know if there’s a ditch or other obstacle that could stop the car on the passenger side where he can’t see. This keeps him informed of obstacles that could prevent an escape. If you can affect an immediate escape, do so. If not, decide immediately if it's worth fighting and the probability of being killed.

If that fails and it comes to fighting instead of fleeing it would be good if your driver was carrying a suppressed selective fire rifle caliber carbine loaded with AP ammunition to reach BGs that are using their vehicles for cover. The BG’s SKSs will punch through anything except your engine block and you need to be able to punch back. Since they've got numbers the way to even the odds is with greater rate of fire. Your training level may be less than your driver's (otherwise why hire him) so a lighter caliber weapon may be appropriate for you. High rate of fire is important still and if you can get it an MP5 with beta mag you should. If selective fire suppressed weapons are not available to you then a simple AK folding stock or AR collapsible and a semi auto shotgun combo might be valuable or shotguns for both of you. Again, overwhelming firepower is what you need. Handguns should be carried by both and should again have as high a capacity as possible. Think the bank escape scene in the movie “Heat” or the actual North Hollywood bank robbery where overwhelming rate of fire and firepower kept law enforcement pinned down. All that is based on the premise that you don’t care where the rounds that don’t hit the BGs and their vehicles go.