scenario - bus stop, 2 thugs

[Jamie C.]

karhu wrote: Hipotetical scenario:

You arrive at a bus stop around 7pm. There is only one other person there too. Some minutes pass and two other persons come to the bus stop. They are well dressed and don't look suspicious to you. As they arrive to the bus stop, one of them stands one meter behind you ( thug Nr2 ); the other ( thugNr1 ) stops directly in front of you. (or one thug stands to your left and the other to your right).

You suddenly become aware of the possibly dangerous situation but before you move, "thugNr1" turns around and says "be calm, I have a knife… give me your wallet". He doesn't brandish his knife, but let you see pat of it underneath the sleeve of his shirt.

You have your prefered CCW handgun …

What would you do?

- Even if you are fast enough to draw, (and also in case of an autoloader: turn off the safeties or rack the slide) and shoot "thugNr1" - unless he dies instantly, he might as well have enough time and energy to cause you a mortal injury with his knife…
Besides, how to avoid the attack of "thugNr2" ? (possibly armed with a knife too)

In this case, the best option is just to give them your wallet?
(what if they find your gun - after searching you trying to find more money?)

I rush the guy facing me before he draws the knife, grab him by his arm, pivot, and push/throw him into his buddy, while back-peddling and drawing...

With any luck at all, neither will be expecting a sudden counter-attack, nor finding themselves looking down the barrel of a pistol.

Before anyone calls this tactic crazy or suicidal, it's one of the things we were taught to do during ASP baton training... The drill was to put a person in a circle of the other trainees, and see how long he could hold them off. When a person was struck with the practice batons, they were supposed to "freeze" for 10 seconds. The most successful tactic was to get outside the circle as quickly as possible, and make the other people "get in each other's way".

This is exactly what I would attempt to do were I caught "flat-footed" as described.


J.C.

 

[Dacoda]

What I would do, is pull out my piece, and point it at myself, and tell them, "take one more step and he's gonna get it!"

haha sorry, I just finished watching blazing saddles again last night.

as usual, I have nothing important to say. However, I definitely have to agree with tepin

There is a good chance that you can reply "OK. No problem", reach for wallet and BOLT! Do a side-step and run. If his knife isn’t in-hand and pointed at your belly, you *should* be able to run.

Even before reading his answer, this is exactly what I was thinking. You might not be able to outrun a bullet, but you should definitely be able to outrun a knife. and while running, you can draw your CCW, and if you notice them chasing you, turn around with it. The sight alone may scare them off. I know you should never draw it until you're gonna shoot, but, I'm in NO hurry to use deadly force. Until the time comes when I absolutely positively have no other choice.

 

[Jamie C.]

It's a fair bet that the fellow behind you is expecting you to try and run off, and is prepared to stop you.


J.C.

 

[Dacoda]

Jamie, it's possible, and granted I'm not built like a line-backer, but if someone was blocking me from escaping a dangerous situation, I'm charging like a freight train. It all depends on how close the person is, Obviously I'm not gonna run into a guy *holding* a knife. I'd run in the direction of least danger. Does this bus stop have a shelter? Does the shelter have a way in or out? My point is, 2 guys can't block 360 degrees of space. But if I see that the guy blocking my exit isn't holding any weapons, he's getting trampled on.

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

I don't yet carry a pistol, waiting to get a class to get a permit... But I will be a carrying a Glock and a Walther PPK and probably a 1911 as well (at least two pistols anyway, probably just a Glock and a PPK), I don't plan to keep any of them in a state where they are in need of having a round chambered, although the safety will be on the PPK).

I'd quickly step to one side as I drew my Glock and then begin to fire at the first person who comes at me, or I'd jam my fist into the bridge of his nose or slug him so hard in the throat that it crushes his wind-pipe (I'm rather well trained in martial arts), then spin around to confront the other man in the event he is going to try something.

If you can't get your gun out right away, use a quick hand-to-hand maneuver to gain valuable seconds so you can get the gun out...

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

Or... "Okay, here you can have my wallet..." I seem to be reaching into the breast pocket of my suit for my wallet but instead out from the shoulder holster comes a pistol! BAM!

 

[Jamie C.]

"I'd quickly step to one side as I drew my Glock and then begin to fire at the first person who comes at me..."

Just don't sidestep out into the street and get run over by the bus you're waiting on...
( That would be about the kind of luck I'd have.... manage to get the upper hand on the thugs, only to be flattened by oncoming traffic.... )


J.C.

 

[Jeff White]

EOTechRulesAll said;

I'd quickly step to one side as I drew my Glock and then begin to fire at the first person who comes at me, or I'd jam my fist into the bridge of his nose or slug him so hard in the throat that it crushes his wind-pipe (I'm rather well trained in martial arts), then spin around to confront the other man in the event he is going to try something.

If you can't get your gun out right away, use a quick hand-to-hand maneuver to gain valuable seconds so you can get the gun out...

So just what quick hand to hand maneuver would someone who is rather well trained in the martial arts use to gain those valuable seconds?

Jeff

 

[Krauser]

I'd bust out some Jeet Kune Do and some Aikido on their asses. Martial arts are highly under-rated.

 

[psychophipps]

So just what quick hand to hand maneuver would someone who is rather well trained in the martial arts use to gain those valuable seconds?

Jeff

My personal favorite is the quick spear-hand poke to the throat. It's probably not going to crush anything (no matter what your sensei has told you about this) but it'll definitely get them thinking about something other than drawing a knife. Then a stutter-step forward (or a simultaneous one) to blast 'em with a skip-kick to the shin to keep him honest while I commence with turning around while I sidestep at a '45 away from the second guy and to the primary assailant's left side. Total elapsed time, maybe 1 1/2 second and I've just moved 6 feet. Used this as a bouncer and it's been 100% effective.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[karhu]

My personal favorite is the quick spear-hand poke to the throat. It's probably not going to crush anything (no matter what your sensei has told you about this) but it'll definitely get them thinking about something other than drawing a knife. Then a stutter-step forward (or a simultaneous one) to blast 'em with a skip-kick to the shin to keep him honest while I commence with turning around while I sidestep at a '45 away from the second guy and to the primary assailant's left side. Total elapsed time, maybe 1 1/2 second and I've just moved 6 feet. Used this as a bouncer and it's been 100% effective.

The idea I like the most is first to move out of their line of attack, then draw.
If you start a fight right there (BGs in front and behind you), I think there are good possibilities that you will get cut. It is very common that muggers carry a "razor blade" between their fingers too. And they need less than one second to cut you in the face, neck or head.

Remember that BG behind you is there ready to react if you do not cooperate with his partner in front of you.


.

 

[karhu]

In that situation I would give them the wallet while moving to a more advantageous position,
(out of knife range) and acting scared, then as soon as they lower their guard or are out of knife range
I'm opening up on them.

not so much to save the wallet, but to prevent them from harming the next person.

I heard about a similar case, when the person first gave the BGs his wallet, but the BGs cut him anyway (not a mortal injury though) and left.
Then the 'victim' drew his weapon and shot the BGs.
Long story short: the 'victim' lost the trial because the judge and jury agreed that his life was not in immediate danger then (the BGs were leaving) and he shot the BGs for vengeance.


.

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

I really don't like this scenario to begin with for a number of reasons... One is that I never let anybody get me into a spot such as this and if I feel uncomfortable I resituate myself, as well as having a knife in my coat pocket and my hand on it, so I could use that to strike out if they pull a knife first, and then while they're reeling from the knife blow, go for my gun (assuming they don't run off from the knife attack that is).

I believe the best thing to do in a situation like this is to never let it reach this point... Use common sense and good judgement so you don't get stuck in something like this.

 

[v8fbird]

Why, out of curiosity, does everyone keep saying COAT POCKET COAT POCKET COAT POCKET?

So far as I can tell, it's summer in most places.

Do you mean suit coats (if so, why do you have your hands in the pockets?), or do you all really wear real coats when it's 95 degrees outside?

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

I usually wear a coat just because I think I look good in one, depending on the temperature though...


As for the martial arts move, probably a smash of the hand into the nose or neck, not a punch of a fist, but smashing the palm into the face, that ought to buy you a few seconds...

It's been a while since I've been in martial arts, but that's what I'd do, although I guess I'd have to be in the situation and analyze real quick what was going on... I might also, if I had the distance, do a kick to the side since I am much better with kicking than with punching or hand moves.

 

[Doug.38PR]

1) Keep an eye on what is going on

2) Don't let them get you in such a position.

3) JUMP out from between them with one arm pushing or swinging while the other arm draws your revolver from 3 o clock under a coat or at 9 or 10 o clock crossdraw.

This day and age I would take no chances (or I guess you would say I would take a chance as I would have a better chance resisting than giving in.

 

[Rocksurly]

About 20 years ago i had an interesting talk with a retired sheriff that was friends with my family and had just started up a new restaurant business. I was new to the martial arts and got into talking about how they teach us different ways to react to knife situations etc.

One was what to do if a BG draws a knife on you at close range. The retired sheriff said he was taught that the first thing to do is go down on your back to the ground as fast as you can. His reason for this was it gives you time to draw your weapon by putting yourself out of knife range.

He said from here the BG can't stab you unless he to takes it to the ground to reach you and he said most people with knifes don't want to get in a ground wrestling match much less with someone with a gun.

He also showed me by having me try to kick him in the head how he can pivit fast enough to block my kicks to his head and other vital body parts using his hands and feet. I was a brown belt at the time and it was quite impressive. He even said he could hold two attackers off at once this way from the ground.