School fights

[JackC]

My youngest son, who is in the fifth grade, brought home a letter from the principal yesterday. I seems he was disciplined for fighting. The letter stated that he had been knocked to the ground and was being kicked by a group of fellow students, and he got up and started hitting them back as I have always taught both of my boys. My son was punished for defending himself.

My thoughts are, since it seems that the principal and school board have outlawed self defense, they are saying that they will protect any student from harm at the hand of another student. If my son gets harmed in any way at school would I have a legal right to hold the principal and school board responsible? I mean personally responsible for failing to protect from harm and not allowing reasonable self defense?

Jack

 

[crewchief]

In my opinion you would have legal recourse. If the school is punishing students by suspension for acts of self defense then they are teaching the children to take the abuse. Because of these teachings if your child is hurt because he was taught not to defend himself because if he did it would mean suspension or possible expulsion and he ends up hurt because he took it and there was no teacher to stop it then most definitely sue their butt. As soon as they taught that to your child in a way they are saying that self defense is not needed and they will police the actions of the students and act as protectors.

 

[MacPelto]

We can talk about this here, but what you need is a lawyer...

 

[Delmar]

I agree with MacPelto
The best way to fight these litagating idiots is to hire a litagator.

 

[Waitone]

A lawyer might be appropriate but my guess is we are looking at the logical consequences of zero tolerance.

From a larger perspective this is the exact same situation virtually every legal CCW toting citizen faces. Get involved in a by-the-numbers, clean shoot and unless the state has a "make my day " law, you will then be sued by the shootee's family et al.

Both situations deny parties the right of self-defense. The only way to regain the right is to make rulemakers pay the cost of their rules.

You make not need a lawyer if your objective is simply to make life hell of the bureaucracy.

 

[Old Fuff]

Jack C:

A lot depends on if the school principal **admitted in writing ** that your son was attacked by a "group of students" and that he resorted to defending himself only after being "kicked" while he was down.

Yes, you should consult with a lawyer. He may not have too sue, as a letter to the School Board along with a copy of the principal's letter may get their attention. They do have an obligation to protect your son while he is in school. There may be a change of attitude if they know that you will take action.

Since this school year is almost over I would also explore the possibilities of sending your son to a different school next year. If the bullies that attacked your son have gotten away with it you can expect more of the same, and the stress involved might ruin his education.

 

[buy guns]

i hate to seem insensitive but i have to ask: how did your son do against the other kids?

 

[BeLikeTrey]

Buy Guns!! that's Insensitive!

So Jack, how DID he do? even him getting up and putting up a fight will make them probably pick an easier target next time. Kudo's to your boy for not being an easy victim. I'd take him out for ice cream and make sure he understands that what he did is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

 

[WT]

Why haven't you had a face-to-face with the principal? Are you involved with your son's education? Have you ever met his teachers or principal?

This letter being sent home and talk of a lawsuit it BS. Too many kids threaten their teachers with "I'm gonna sue you!" Sit down with the principal and find out what happened.

 

[carp killer]

At my Jr. H.S., it was standard policy to send BOTH parties involved in a fight home. A bully always slapped a friend of mine in the back of the head when he came into class EVERY day. And the wimp of a teacher did NOTHING!!!!! So one day my buddy switched seats with me an the bully hit me, and I stood up. I kicked his ass, of course. The teacher did NOTHING, AGAIN!!!!! But I was sent home, even though the priciple told my dad that the bully admitted to starting the fight. It was just school policy. Public schools SUCK!!!!!!

 

[SJG26]

My son's experience.................

6th grader-------------1st yr in the middle school. His walk home takes him past the high school- all one campus.

Beginning of the school year some high school kid decides to establish a pecking order that includes my son...........resulting in him being pushed off his bike and picked on over a few days.

Our school has a "policy" against bullying, fighting, etc. At the open house my wife and I meet with the vice principal (after phone conversations) and put him on notice - we have noted the problem, the school has failed to deal with the issue-----he states that they will try to monitor the situation.

I tell the V.P. that I have now given my son explicit permission to defend himself (green belt for his age level - he's 12 but the instructor requests he practice with the 15-16 yr olds due to his speed/strength) and I DO NOT expect that my son will be punished for such defense. The V.P. says he understands.

Fast-forward to a week later------big kid pushes my son off the bike at a corner......as my son gets up to brush himself off big kid comes in for more......
a combination sweep of his legs and blow to his chest leaves the big kid gasping for air and in a world of hurt for awhile
Big kid's buddy trys to get involved........ and discovers my son's foot in his face

Haven't been any issues since..................................................

 

[Camel]

If you feel like it is enough to warrant a change of schools you might want to consider a virtual school. I just finished my junior, and senior years Florida Virtual School.

And here is one in PA http://www.pavcs.org/.

I enjoyed virtual school and they don't seem to mind the "arsenal" in my "classroom"

 

[Aikibiker]

Camel is on the right track there. Get your kid out of the public schools. The further he goes the worse it will get for him. He is lucky the school didn't get him into legal trouble or confined to the psych ward for his "aggressive behavior" at least one of the local elementary schools likes to do that to their kids when they get into fights.

I would suggest you sue the school for enough money to continue your child's education outside the influence of the public school system. Virtual schools, home schooling, private schools (after you carefully investigate them of course) anything but the public education system.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Times seem to have changed a bit. We had fights all the time when I was a kid that age. The teachers read us the riot act, sometimes slapped our faces, sometimes kept us after school, and figured boys would be boys.

 

[jnojr]

Get a lawyer.

The school has admitted that a group of kids beat up your kid, and there was obviously nothing they could do about it.

This attitude is too peravsive in our society... "Do not try to defend yourself. Call the authorities. If you cannot call the authorities, passively wait for them to show up. Don't resist. Maybe you won't get hurt too badly. Oh, and the authorities do not have an affirmitive duty to defend you, so if they never show up, too bad"

"Zero tolerance" is just PC gone completely haywire. The only way to fight it is with lawsuits... that's how PC got the stranglehold it has on us now, and that's the only thing bureaucrats understand. It's clear that common sense never enters the picture.

 

[MagKnightX]

I have been attacked several times at school. If there are teachers or administrators around, I just take it like a good little sheep. I already have bad enough grades, no sense making them worse by being suspended.

Now, if there aren't any admins around... at least I only have to hit back once or twice before they quit.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

My brother had the same problem. The school bully and his posse thump my nephew around a couple times, nephew won't fight back because he doesn't want trouble. School won't do anything about it.
Brother tells him to fight back in the future. Next time it happens, the bully ends up with a bloody snoot, and the principal called a meeting between parents to resolve the situation.

The bullys dad starts getting real beligerent about how his kid is "not the problem". Turns out my brother had a folder with him documenting several instances where the bully was the instigator in several fights, and not with just my nephew either. Told the principal and other father he would continue to log complaints with times and dates documented if this crap didn't stop. And that his boy would continue to defend himself if needed. Also that if they wanted to make a legal issue out of it, he knew several other parents that would be willing to go to court.

The bully transfered out the next week, to the relief of many parents.

 

[SteveS]

I guess I would try to resolve this without litigation as a first step. It surprises me that so many people complain about "frivilous lawsuits" are the first to suggest a suit.

I would first talk to the pricipal face-to-face and try find out exactly what happened. If you still feel your son acted properly, ask that he not be disciplined. If he refuses, go to the school board. If this doesn't work, then litigation might be appropriate.

I do some contract work for several local schools. They will typically discipline both parties because each side will say that the other started it. If they can determine that it was self-defense, then usually only the attacker will be suspended.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be a public school administrator today. There seem to be way more fights than when I was in school. Add to that, indifferent parents, and it owuld be a frustrating job. At least private schools can pick and choose good students and kick out the trouble makers.

 

[TaxPhd]

The "Law of the Playground" will always exist. The attempted wussification of the American male has simply made it easier for bullys to behave badly.

A sit-down needs to happen with the administration, and make sure that everyone is clear that if the administration will not protect your son, your son will protect himself.

Then get him to a boxing gym. At that age, the biggest obstical to overcome is teaching them that they CAN take a punch, and that it won't reduce them to a blob of quivering protoplasm. Boxing teaches this where many martial arts don't. Mix it with some wrestling and/or Judo and your son should have problems with bullys.



Scott

 

[MacPelto]

Just for the record, for all of you who say 'you don't need to sue', only one person on this thread has actually said that they recommend a lawsuit. For my part, I recommend a lawyer, becuase the question asked in the original post was -

If my son gets harmed in any way at school would I have a legal right to hold the principal and school board responsible? I mean personally responsible for failing to protect from harm and not allowing reasonable self defense?

And my answer remains: we can talk all we like, but the only person who can really give a good answer to this question would be a lawyer from your state, and maybe not even him, unless there actually is/has been a lawsuit.

Asking a pro for legal opinion/advice is nowhere near filing suit.

 

[mvpel]

This sort of thing can happen in real life too, not just school - my brother, when in high school, was being held from behind by two frat boys while a third one pounded on him, after they took offense at his suggestion that perhaps they should find a bathroom in which to urinate, rather than on the sidewalks of his hometown.

The cops rolled around the corner just as he used the two holding him as leverage to kick the third one in the head, who was snoring before he hit the ground, and thereafter put the other two on the run.

He copped a plea and got it expunged by keeping his nose clean for 2 years.

 

[Norton]

Your boy did well. It is so true that until one stands up for him/herself the abuse will continue.

From personal experience.....I was the kid whose mother used to yell at me when I got beat up at the playground and bus stop. Somehow it was my fault for getting my butt whipped

Finally I got tired of it all and the next time two of those guys came after me, I took them both down. Funny how everyone gave me a wide berth after that. Once I hit the 6'7"/230lb mark they gave me a VERY wide berth

 

[JackC]

Wow, didn't expect to see this many replies. My son was not hurt, and I have a copy of the letter sent home. I will talk to the principal on monday and let him know that my son has MY permission to defend himself. A teacher witnessed the event, and stated that it was self defense. From what I know of bullies, once they find out that it hurts to mess with someone, they leave him/her alone. A lawyer is the last recourse.
Thanks for the advice all, it will be considered.
Jack

 

[Firethorn]

I remember getting in a fight with a bully at school

I received in-school suspension for three days... And kudos from my parents
I used the three days to get caught up on my homework.

My parents were always 'defend yourself', and when I did so, they rewarded me. I didn't give a hoot about what the administration said after that...

JackC, if you think that your child made the correct choice, reward him. Make sure that he knows that you think he made the right choice. This will mean the world to him.

edited for clarity

 

[Ben Shepherd]

JackC, get that teacher to sign and date a letter stating what happened. You may need a document trail if things don't improve.

If this keeps happening, I second getting legal advice. It should be able to be resolved without actually filing a suit though.