school me on lever gun calibers

[mainecoon]

Don't know much about lever gun calibers, other than that 30-30 is the "deer caliber" and 45-70 is the "blow everything to smithereens" caliber. All the handgun calibers available for lever guns... how do they equate to the rounds available for bolt rifles? Or are they totally different?

 

[627PCFan]

Dont forget the old 35 Remington. I have one from 1952 in 35 with....ballard rifling. Its a good medium bore rifle with a light thump. Only trouble is finding brass which is a season run.

 

[OilyPablo]

I'm not one to "school" anyone on such a topic, but my favorites are the handgun caliber levers. .22LR, 38/357, 44Magnum.

To me the interesting ones are the older black powder calibers. .32-30, .38-40 and such. I cannot pretend to list them all without researching on my own.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Lever+action+calibers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever-action

Most lever-action designs are not as strong as bolt-action or semi-automatic designs, and as a result lever-action rifles tend to be generally found in low- and medium-pressure cartridges such as .30-30 Winchester or .44 Magnum, although the Marlin Model 1894 is available in three high-pressure magnum calibers; and the Winchester Model 1895, which used a box magazine, was chambered for .30-06 and other powerful military cartridges. The most common caliber is by far the .30-30, which was introduced by Winchester with the Model 1894. Other common calibers for lever-action firearms include: .38 Special/.357 Magnum, .44 Special/.44 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45-70, .45 Colt, .32-20 Winchester, .35 Remington, 308 Marlin Express, .22 caliber rimfire and .300 Savage. Lever-action designs using stronger, rotary locking bolts (such as the Browning BLR) or tilting block designs such as the Savage Model 99 are usually fed from either box or rotary magazines and are not limited to round nose bullet designs, as well as being able to handle a greater range of calibers than a traditional lever-action design.

Lever-action shotguns such as the Winchester Model 1887 were chambered in 10 or 12-gauge black powder shotgun shells, whereas the Model 1901 was chambered for 10 gauge smokeless shotshells. Modern reproductions are chambered for 12 gauge smokeless shells, while the Winchester Model 9410 shotgun is available in .410 bore.

 

[MEHavey]

Please don't overlook the Savage-99/300Savage as "a levergun".
If there was ever a modern classic do-all combination, that's it.





And nothing... absolutely nothing outside a`73Winchester... is smoother.

.

 

[jmr40]

You have traditional lever actions with tube magazines such as the Marlins and Winchesters. Then you have more modern lever actions such as the Savage, Browning BLR, and Winchester 88 that shoot modern cartridges.

The guns with tube magazines have weaker actions that cannot handle pressures generated in modern cartridges and their tube magazines limit them to round or flat nose bullets. With most pointed bullets there is the possibility that a pointed bullet could set off the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine. Hornady makes rubber pointed bullets that are the exception.

Early levers all used low powered pistol cartridges. Many are still made for old and newer pistol calibers in a wide range of cartridges including 357 and 44 magnum.

The 45-70 was developed as a military round and traditional loadings are not really all that powerful. In the mid 1880s some larger levers were designed for the 45-70 class of rifle cartridges, but when the 30-30 came out 8 or 9 years later it all but killed them off. At the time the 30-30 was much more powerful.

I still think the 30-30 is the most useful all around. Over the years such rounds as the 32 Special, 35 Rem, 375 Win, 308 and 338 Marlin, 307 and 356 Win have been used. Any advantage they offer is marginal at best.

Marlin tried to get into the big bore business with the 444 in 1964. The problem was that they were shooting bullets designed for 44 magnum handguns at rifle speeds. Early bullets were not very effective. Since that time better bullets have been designed, but the 45-70 has pretty well taken it's place.

They brought the 45-70 back from the dead in 1972. There were better bullets available in 45 caliber and since then modern loadings have improved 45-70 performance considerably. Traditional loads are about the minimum for deer, hotter loads are a legitimate load for anything in North America at close range. But at the cost of brutal recoil exceeding 458 magnum since the rifles are much lighter than a 458 would be.

If you are talking about modern levers, they will chamber and fire most of the modern cartridges. The Savages are limited to 308 length cartridges but the Browning is offered in long action 30-06 class cartridges.

 

[az_imuth]

Not having tried too many different levergun calibers, I do have some in 22, 38/357, 30-30 and 45-70. I feel that these will cover pretty much any need I might have, and if not, then there's always the bolt guns in other calibers.

 

[CraigC]

The guns with tube magazines have weaker actions that cannot handle pressures generated in modern cartridges...

Uh, what??? You mean like the 1895 chambered in the .30-06 and .270? Or maybe the 1886 which is proven well north of 50,000psi? Or maybe you meant the 1892 .454 at 65,000psi? That's a pistol cartridge running significantly higher pressures than your favorite cartridge, the .30-06. Maybe you meant the .307 and .356, both running at the same 52,000CUP as the .308, or 2000CUP higher than the `06??? The style of magazine has little to do with the strength of the action.

"Modern cartridges", what does that mean???

In the mid 1880s some larger levers were designed for the 45-70 class of rifle cartridges, but when the 30-30 came out 8 or 9 years later it all but killed them off. At the time the 30-30 was much more powerful.

How exactly is a .30-30 "much more powerful" than the .45/70, .45/90 and .50/110.

Over the years such rounds as the 32 Special, 35 Rem, 375 Win, 308 and 338 Marlin, 307 and 356 Win have been used. Any advantage they offer is marginal at best.

What??? You must also think that the .308 is marginally better than the .30WCF? Which is almost identical to the .30-06 so by your logic, the .30-06 is marginally better than the .30WCF. The .356 and .375 in particular are much better suited to larger game.

Traditional loads are about the minimum for deer

Good Lord, man! "Minimum" for deer??? I'd love to hear the logic upon which that statement is based?

 

[Jason_W]

My personal assessment of common rounds for tube magazine lever action rifles:

45/70 - With the proper load, it's more than adequate for any North American game within its range limitations.

.35 Remington - Deer, Black Bear, feral hog, Elk and Moose, once again within appropriate ranges. I wouldn't take a 250 yard shot at moose with a .35 rem, but I wouldn't hesitate at 100 yards.

.30-30 Winchester - A classic cartridge and great for deer, black bear, and feral hog out to 150ish yards. I also knew more than a few Vermonters who lucked into a moose tag and successfully took a New England moose with the round.

.45 Colt - with a modern +p load (buffalo bore style) It is capable of killing any hoofed North American animal whenever ranges aren't too long.

.44 mag - Same as above. Mild .44 special loads can also be used in .44 mag leverguns for plinking and small game hunting.

.357 Mag - Deer and possibly hog and black bear. Load selection is crucial for larger game and shots must be carefully considered. .38 specials provide cheap, low recoil, low noise practice.

I can't really comment on the less common and hyphenated lever gun rounds as my experience with them is nonexistent.

 

[Tommygunn]

Uh, what??? You mean like the 1895 chambered in the .30-06 and .270? Or maybe the 1886 which is proven well north of 50,000psi? Or maybe you meant the 1892 .454 at 65,000psi? That's a pistol cartridge running significantly higher pressures than your favorite cartridge, the .30-06. Maybe you meant the .307 and .356, both running at the same 52,000CUP as the .308, or 2000CUP higher than the `06??? The style of magazine has little to do with the strength of the action.

Craig, to be fair the Winchester 1895 did not have the tube magazine, it had a box magazine.

The guns with tube magazines have weaker actions that cannot handle pressures generated in modern cartridges and their tube magazines limit them to round or flat nose bullets. With most pointed bullets there is the possibility that a pointed bullet could set off the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine. Hornady makes rubber pointed bullets that are the exception.

Actually, from what I've learned is that the reason lever actions were considered inferior had nothing to do with what type magazine they had. The parts that lock the rifle are (on lever actions) normally near the rear. This is typical of the Browning actions, the 1886, 92, 94, and 95 designs all have a lug or two that fits into a mortice either behind the bolt or on each side. While the 1886 was a very strong action, and its derivitave, the 1892, was also very strong (stronger really than it needed to be for the blackpowder rounds, this strength lent itself well to being redesigned into .44 magnum and other modern cartridge rounds), the fact is bolt actions and semi autos have the lock-up up front, thus producing a very strong assembly toward the front of the receiver.

This isn't to say that lever actions can't be strong, it's just that it's easier to design bolt actions for modern high power cartridges. The fact that bolt actions have gained popularity also is a factor....there seems little impetus these days to design new lever actions, just to replicate the actions of older guns for those who still appreciate them.

 

[Speedo66]

Don't know much about lever gun calibers, other than that 30-30 is the "deer caliber" and 45-70 is the "blow everything to smithereens" caliber. All the handgun calibers available for lever guns... how do they equate to the rounds available for bolt rifles? Or are they totally different?

With the exception of "Africa" cartridges, you can find most cartridges in some sort of lever action.

 

[Old judge creek]

I have two 1895 Winchesters - one in 30-40 Krag and the other in 30-06.

I believe the most utilitarian Lever action rifle today is the 44 Magnum. It has eclipsed the 3030 Winchester in general utility in my opinion.

 

[Jason_W]

It should also be noted that lever actions are only "inferior" for long range applications.

For whatever reason, American shooters have always been obsessed with ultra long range. As a consequence, every time a new round emerges that increases range just a little bit, the older stuff immediately becomes "inferior" in the minds of the American consumer.

 

[CraigC]

I agree with Jason. The only thing "modern cartridges" (whatever that means) in boltguns gains you is range. There are LOTS of folks hunting 100yd areas with 400yd rifles.

Craig, to be fair the Winchester 1895 did not have the tube magazine, it had a box magazine.

No but it is a traditional, 120yr old design. Not "modern" by any standard.

 

[Tommygunn]

I agree with Jason.

Craig, to be fair the Winchester 1895 did not have the tube magazine, it had a box magazine.

No but it is a traditional, 120yr old design. Not "modern" by any standard.

I agree with Jason too.
And yes the 1895 is a 120 year old design, traditional. And one helluva sweet rifle!

 

[2bfree]

The 300 Savage is a nice caliber, a couple steps up from 30-30.

 

[BCRider]

....All the handgun calibers available for lever guns... how do they equate to the rounds available for bolt rifles? Or are they totally different?

Well, they are simply handgun cartridges being shot from a rifle instead of a handgun. The longer barrel gives a little more muzzle velocity. Typically around 200 fps give or take.

The idea of this was to give a working cowboy, farmer or miner ammo compatibility with a handgun.

These days we don't typically have such constraints. But a lot of us still get a kick out of having a handgun and carbine chambered in matching ammo.

For whatever reason lever guns have primarily been chambered in the rimmed revolver cartridges. I don't know if anyone has produced lever guns in rimless sizes but if they did they were not done in great numbers or for very long. Not sure why that would be the case but there it is.


Also the ballistics coefficient on handgun bullets is pretty dismal compared to the long skinny pointed boat tail shapes that can be shot from shouldered rifle cartridges. But for those that are working a ranch or farm or that hunt in tight woods where a 100 yard unobstructed field of view is rare a rifle in .357Mag or .44mag can get the job done just fine depending on what is being discouraged or hunted.

And for those of us that target shoot and plink for fun these handgun calibers offer the chance of some cheaper grins.

The short stroke needed for handgun calibers also provides us with some of the lightest and most carry friendly rifles you'll find.

 

[Jason_W]

Well, they are simply handgun cartridges being shot from a rifle instead of a handgun. The longer barrel gives a little more muzzle velocity. Typically around 200 fps give or take.

The idea of this was to give a working cowboy, farmer or miner ammo compatibility with a handgun.

These days we don't typically have such constraints. But a lot of us still get a kick out of having a handgun and carbine chambered in matching ammo.

For whatever reason lever guns have primarily been chambered in the rimmed revolver cartridges. I don't know if anyone has produced lever guns in rimless sizes but if they did they were not done in great numbers or for very long. Not sure why that would be the case but there it is.


Also the ballistics coefficient on handgun bullets is pretty dismal compared to the long skinny pointed boat tail shapes that can be shot from shouldered rifle cartridges. But for those that are working a ranch or farm or that hunt in tight woods where a 100 yard unobstructed field of view is rare a rifle in .357Mag or .44mag can get the job done just fine depending on what is being discouraged or hunted.

And for those of us that target shoot and plink for fun these handgun calibers offer the chance of some cheaper grins.

The short stroke needed for handgun calibers also provides us with some of the lightest and most carry friendly rifles you'll find.

The .35 Rem is a rimless cartridge originally designed for a semi-automatic.

 

[30Cal]

The typical ctg's associated with lever actions are well suited for 150yds. The ones chambered in pistol calibers, probably 100yds. The bullets don't have amazing BC's, but they do their job just fine.

Personally, my longest shot deer hunting (Kentucky, western WA and in the northeast) has been 120yds. Typical shot for me would be 25-35yds. I'll be totin' a 38-55 this coming season.

 

[cc-hangfire]

I'm just "listening" along with the OP, mainecoon, since my firearm collection doesn't yet include a lever gun. Great - and animated - discussion!! I'm learning a lot in a little time. Thanks folks, from a lever gun noobie.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

If you get the browning BLR lever action it is magazine fed and you can get just about all the calibers you could ever want. Nothing wrong with a 30-30 either. They are all fine for most general hunting in cpx2 game.

 

[Jason_W]

On the topic of leverguns, Henry is now making its .44 mag Big Boy in all blued steel

http://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/henry-big-boy-steel/

It's selling for a little over $700 on cheaper than dirt. I'm personally torn on one of these or hunting for a pre-Remington Marlin 1894 on gunbroker.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

i have not seen anybody mention the 32-20 cartridge.

i had a browning mod 53 in 32-20. the factory lead loading is a dismal failure.

warm hand loads with hornady 60,80 and 100 grn hollowpoints really bring this caliber alive. much more accurate than lead and impressive performance.

 

[savanahsdad]

On the topic of leverguns, Henry is now making its .44 mag Big Boy in all blued steel

http://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/henry-big-boy-steel/

It's selling for a little over $700 on cheaper than dirt. I'm personally torn on one of these or hunting for a pre-Remington Marlin 1894 on gunbroker.

I really want one of those Henry 44's but not at $700. just saw two Marlin 1894's at a show last month for $355- $375, both were pre safety, one pre- warning like the one I already own , , my next lever might just be a Rossi

 

[CraigC]

i had a browning mod 53 in 32-20. the factory lead loading is a dismal failure.

They work fine for edible small game at relatively short ranges. 85gr or 100gr JHP's at 2000fps to blow stuff up!

 

[AethelstanAegen]

With the exception of "Africa" cartridges, you can find most cartridges in some sort of lever action.

And there's a few still in some of the older "Africa" cartridges. I have a Winchester 1895 in 405 Winchester, which is a rifle and cartridge pairing Theodore Roosevelt took with him on safari. It certainly puts a world of hurt on anything on the receiving end.