Grab a Marlin in .357. Little recoil, cheap practice issue. Plenty of power, its simple, its elegant. Plus, down the road you can grab tons of revolvers in the same caliber. you can even get a red-dot and stuff. Once ya get used to it loading is swift and easy aswell.
Defensive Levergun Caliber
- Thread starter YammyMonkey
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My $ .04
You will get a huge speed boost from a rifle barrel. I experimented a while back with some .357 110, 125, 140 and 158 gr HP bullets loaded at the top end of performance for a 4 inch .357. On paper, all bullets suffered a "total failure" when shot from a 20 inch carbine. What that means is that each one "splintered" and separated from it's jacket.
In less technical terms, the bullets fragmented after about 1 inch of penetration. The jackets peeled off about an inch later and were torn apart. The cone of destruction was 30 - 35 degrees off center line. Penetration was 6 - 8 inches. There was, in most cases, no significant central mass to measure retained weight. The test media was dripping wet news print loosely packed.
In short, after about 1 inch of penetration the bullets exploded and the fragments traveled about 6 more inches as much as 30 degrees off the original path, and the mess created was spectacular.
Solid bullets traveled 3 times as far in the test media, but started to tumble an divert from their original path after 4 - 5 inches.
I wouldn't want to get shot with any of them. I believe that a solid torso hit with any of them would be fatal even if it happened on the steps of an ER because the damage to any organ in the vicinity of the point of entry would likely be un-repairable. That does not mean to imply that such a would would be instantly incapacitating. Certainly these loads should not be used against thick haired or very large game animals.
I keep a 20 inch Rossi 92 in my home with an attached surefire and loaded with the 110 gr ammo. Several months ago I flattened a wild dog with it late at night. Very impressive. The dog was a German Shepard mix. 1 bullet through the chest cavity left an exit would 2 inches in diameter. A second bullet through the guts did not exit, but did pretty well destroy everything in it's path.
FWIW.
You will get a huge speed boost from a rifle barrel. I experimented a while back with some .357 110, 125, 140 and 158 gr HP bullets loaded at the top end of performance for a 4 inch .357. On paper, all bullets suffered a "total failure" when shot from a 20 inch carbine. What that means is that each one "splintered" and separated from it's jacket.
In less technical terms, the bullets fragmented after about 1 inch of penetration. The jackets peeled off about an inch later and were torn apart. The cone of destruction was 30 - 35 degrees off center line. Penetration was 6 - 8 inches. There was, in most cases, no significant central mass to measure retained weight. The test media was dripping wet news print loosely packed.
In short, after about 1 inch of penetration the bullets exploded and the fragments traveled about 6 more inches as much as 30 degrees off the original path, and the mess created was spectacular.
Solid bullets traveled 3 times as far in the test media, but started to tumble an divert from their original path after 4 - 5 inches.
I wouldn't want to get shot with any of them. I believe that a solid torso hit with any of them would be fatal even if it happened on the steps of an ER because the damage to any organ in the vicinity of the point of entry would likely be un-repairable. That does not mean to imply that such a would would be instantly incapacitating. Certainly these loads should not be used against thick haired or very large game animals.
I keep a 20 inch Rossi 92 in my home with an attached surefire and loaded with the 110 gr ammo. Several months ago I flattened a wild dog with it late at night. Very impressive. The dog was a German Shepard mix. 1 bullet through the chest cavity left an exit would 2 inches in diameter. A second bullet through the guts did not exit, but did pretty well destroy everything in it's path.
FWIW.
Of the levers i own, my choice would have to be my Winnie Trapper in .45colt.
loaded for the rifle and the Blackhawk, those 45's are like a freight train.
325 grains of hard cast lead OW!!!
or 240 grain hollow points!!!!
that with the Smith mountain gun!
loaded for the rifle and the Blackhawk, those 45's are like a freight train.
325 grains of hard cast lead OW!!!
or 240 grain hollow points!!!!
that with the Smith mountain gun!I mentioned this in another thread, but is probably more appropriate here...
I just got a Marlin 336C for fun and picked up some yellow box 170 gr soft points for practice. I don't hunt - this is just a fun gun - but it strikes me that I should have a box of ammo for solving two-legged problems. What would be a good 30-30 bullet choice for such situations?
I just got a Marlin 336C for fun and picked up some yellow box 170 gr soft points for practice. I don't hunt - this is just a fun gun - but it strikes me that I should have a box of ammo for solving two-legged problems. What would be a good 30-30 bullet choice for such situations?
The 170 gr will work, but overpenetration is a risk, esp. if you miss. You could try the Remington 55 gr accelerators - it's basically a sabot round. Frankly, I'm not sure what bullet they use in them, and if it doesn't fragment reliably it might overpenetrate as well. The PMC Starfire is comparatively slow speed and s'posed to expand considerably and reliably, and that might be another option.
atek3
Member
"I just got a Marlin 336C for fun and picked up some yellow box 170 gr soft points for practice. I don't hunt - this is just a fun gun - but it strikes me that I should have a box of ammo for solving two-legged problems. What would be a good 30-30 bullet choice for such situations?"
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How about Federal 125g hollow-points? That should discourage 'em.
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How about Federal 125g hollow-points? That should discourage 'em.
Mannlicher
Member
While I would not choose a lever gun for any defensive purpose, if that was all there was, I would go with the .44 Mag. I would go with the 240 grain loads. "Under penetration' is what you need to beware of. The specter of 'overpenetration' is just that, a specter, and despite those that tout the .357 as a wonder caliber, its not. Thirty Thirty has just enough recoil to slow follow up shots. Just hope you don't empty your lever gun while a threat still exists, because reloading is NOT fast, or something you can do with one hand.
No, reloading a lever gun isn't esp fast. But, it is pretty easy to do one handed; support hand maintains gip on forearm while weak hand shoves 'em in thru the loading gate, at least for righties. The cowboy guys do it pretty well.
Most true that high speed hollow pts from a pistol caliber carbine may very likely result in underpenetration due to rapid expansion and bullet failure; above 1500 fps or so, many .357 HP's don't hold perform as designed. Bullet makers say so, and charley3m's observations comport with that. But let's not have Series 70 shoot some 170 gr .30-30's thru the wall towards the neighbor's place and see if underpenetration is a problem!
Edit: I s'pose Mannlicher is talking abt one handed in the sense of a wounded shooter, and that is a pia w/a lever gun
Most true that high speed hollow pts from a pistol caliber carbine may very likely result in underpenetration due to rapid expansion and bullet failure; above 1500 fps or so, many .357 HP's don't hold perform as designed. Bullet makers say so, and charley3m's observations comport with that. But let's not have Series 70 shoot some 170 gr .30-30's thru the wall towards the neighbor's place and see if underpenetration is a problem!
Edit: I s'pose Mannlicher is talking abt one handed in the sense of a wounded shooter, and that is a pia w/a lever gun
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Yes, let's not.
So are the 170's as good a choice as any? I do live in town and have neighbors in all directions around me. Nothing resembling a safe backstop at all. The .30-30 would certainly not be my first choice, but I want to have a box of appropriate ammo handy.
TAP Answer
George,
You can order 110 grain TAP bullets from Hornaday. Unfornutely you will have to reload.
Tac
George,
You can order 110 grain TAP bullets from Hornaday. Unfornutely you will have to reload.
Tac
Another bonus to .357 load is indoor range practice. From what I understand ranges in San Diego are kinda rare, especially rifle ranges. A .357 carbine can be shot on an indoor pistol range.
357 marlin is the perfect solution to your problem. Mine has a Williams Foolproof receiver sight. it is quick accurate and hides well. The flat configuration lets you hide it in a golf bag, ski bag, and many other types.
It is also very cheap to practice with 38 reloads.
Mr Murphy is right about the indoor range use. One local indoor range allows the 357 mag lever action but prohibits the 30 M1 Carbine. I think if you search for posts under the name of Terry Murdoch you will get a lot of info -- he has a better than average knowledge of projectile performance.
It is also very cheap to practice with 38 reloads.
Mr Murphy is right about the indoor range use. One local indoor range allows the 357 mag lever action but prohibits the 30 M1 Carbine. I think if you search for posts under the name of Terry Murdoch you will get a lot of info -- he has a better than average knowledge of projectile performance.
That makes perfect sense as most "gangstas" know machinists who are also well versed in chemistry and metallurgy. Producing new grenades should be no problem!!! Thank God for the ban.
If you're interested in the pistol caliber ones (for practice, plinking, whatever) then be all means get one. But if you're looking to use it for defense, the 30-30 will kill BGs dead, and fast. I'm not sure if you've ever had a chance to compare the difference in energy deposit between the pistol calibers and the 30-30, but the 30-30 gets the nod. I remember setting out buckets of water to freeze, and then dropping out the resultant 5 gallon ice chunks. The pistol calibers would put a nice hole through them and crack them up -- but hit one with a 30-30 and it was instantly gone, spread out over a 50 yard radius. Hit soft ground, and the 30-30 will make a nice crater. I'd feel confident in only needing one shot per target with my 30-30. In a non-semi auto action, that is very comforting.
I would gladly accept either.
I would choose the .357 for HD use because I would rather not have to worry about overpenetration.
The 30-30 would be very effective too though. It does recoil more but that is more about rythm than anything else.
I was helping my brother burn up some extra ammo once with his 30-30. I shot an empty water bottle and it flew up in the air. I worked the lever and tried to hit it in the air but it was falling too fast and I hit it just as it hit the ground again. (It was a very cool shot, one of those ones that you never ever make again.)
Anyhow, a 30-30 can still be shot well quickly. IIRC, someone was making 150 grain HP loads so they might be a better choice for HD use than the regular SP loads that you usually see.
I would choose the .357 for HD use because I would rather not have to worry about overpenetration.
The 30-30 would be very effective too though. It does recoil more but that is more about rythm than anything else.
I was helping my brother burn up some extra ammo once with his 30-30. I shot an empty water bottle and it flew up in the air. I worked the lever and tried to hit it in the air but it was falling too fast and I hit it just as it hit the ground again. (It was a very cool shot, one of those ones that you never ever make again.)
Anyhow, a 30-30 can still be shot well quickly. IIRC, someone was making 150 grain HP loads so they might be a better choice for HD use than the regular SP loads that you usually see.
I've always like the ballistic cmparison that the 30-30 is very similar to the 7.62x39 "intermediate" cartridge used in AKs. That would certianly do well with bad guys.
So would a 357. A 44 may be a bit too much, but you could load it lighter (180 grain or "tactical" loads). Then again, a 44 would also be suitable for other needs around the house/farm/ranch. Wild animals and distant shots come to mind.
Another thing to consider is the barrel and overall length. If this is to be used in the house, consider a short 16" barrel.
Overall, I'd say if you want the gun for HD indoors only, a 16" 357 should be fine. If you want to cover other options, the 30-30 and 44 offer more.
I am considering the same contingency on my farm - I want a "porch gun" - a non-threating lever action and I've been leaning towards a Winchester 94 Trapper in 44 mag.
So would a 357. A 44 may be a bit too much, but you could load it lighter (180 grain or "tactical" loads). Then again, a 44 would also be suitable for other needs around the house/farm/ranch. Wild animals and distant shots come to mind.
Another thing to consider is the barrel and overall length. If this is to be used in the house, consider a short 16" barrel.
Overall, I'd say if you want the gun for HD indoors only, a 16" 357 should be fine. If you want to cover other options, the 30-30 and 44 offer more.
I am considering the same contingency on my farm - I want a "porch gun" - a non-threating lever action and I've been leaning towards a Winchester 94 Trapper in 44 mag.
I like Wincester .30-30's
I've got 2 Model 94's in that caliber...
I reload, and made some reduced velocity 110 gr JHPs with 2 legged critters in mind. Basicly we are talking .30 Carbine ballistics here. This load doesn't have much recoil at all either, another plus...
I've got 2 Model 94's in that caliber...
I reload, and made some reduced velocity 110 gr JHPs with 2 legged critters in mind. Basicly we are talking .30 Carbine ballistics here. This load doesn't have much recoil at all either, another plus...
106rr, would that be the indoor range in Brea, CA? I used to shoot there. They had that rule exactly. Pistol caliber carbines ok, but no M1 Carbines due to their backstop not taking that kind of velocity apparently.
They had that rule exactly. Pistol caliber carbines ok, but no M1 Carbines due to their backstop not taking that kind of velocity apparently.Gunz in Kali
The lever action is your best bet, unless you want a shotgun. To purchase a handgun in Kali, you have to enroll in a gun safety class and register your weapon. Not sure how that is altered for active military, or use of issue sidearm. Lever actions are not yet in the "evil" category.
The lever action is your best bet, unless you want a shotgun. To purchase a handgun in Kali, you have to enroll in a gun safety class and register your weapon. Not sure how that is altered for active military, or use of issue sidearm. Lever actions are not yet in the "evil" category.
Not exactly. Most basic handgun classes in CA allow you to take the BFSC saftey test at the end. However, you just have to complete the test at most gunshops. Anyone that has spent any time shooting can pass it with flying colors. When my wife took the test, she had only been shooting once. She got a 100% because the questions are common sense. However, there is always a study guide that they can give you to look at.
I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag that I've used for goat hunting. With 240gn jacketed projectiles it has quite an impressive effect on a goat .... but then all shots have been less than 100 yards .... most less than 50 yards. Every goat I've shot with it has been DRT .... I think the most any of them have moved is about 10 yards before dropping. No fuss, low recoil, reasonably low noise, minimal disturbance to other animals.
The bullets tend to fragment fairly spectacularly and distribute themselves amongst the vitals when you take shoulder/chest shots, especially if you hit larger bones. Lung and heart damage is impressive with few exit wounds. The animal ends up with a large wound channel and loads of blood loss. Most hit the deck before they know what's happened. I've even had the situation where I shot one goat and when I stepped out from behind the tree I saw its mate who was standing there wondering why the first goat decided to lie down all of a sudden. Up until then I didn't know the 2nd goat was there .... but he ended up on the ground very quickly too.
I'm guessing that goats are constructed a bit lighter than humans .... especially humans wearing clothing .... but would a human be a lot tougher than a goat? My experience suggests that a .44 mag would penetrate pretty well in soft tissues but a pistol projectile moving a bit quicker than its designed for will rapidly fragment after coming in contact with something solid (like bone) with pretty devestating results in terms of tissue damage without exiting.
How you interpret that for your needs is up to you.
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The bullets tend to fragment fairly spectacularly and distribute themselves amongst the vitals when you take shoulder/chest shots, especially if you hit larger bones. Lung and heart damage is impressive with few exit wounds. The animal ends up with a large wound channel and loads of blood loss. Most hit the deck before they know what's happened. I've even had the situation where I shot one goat and when I stepped out from behind the tree I saw its mate who was standing there wondering why the first goat decided to lie down all of a sudden. Up until then I didn't know the 2nd goat was there .... but he ended up on the ground very quickly too.
I'm guessing that goats are constructed a bit lighter than humans .... especially humans wearing clothing .... but would a human be a lot tougher than a goat? My experience suggests that a .44 mag would penetrate pretty well in soft tissues but a pistol projectile moving a bit quicker than its designed for will rapidly fragment after coming in contact with something solid (like bone) with pretty devestating results in terms of tissue damage without exiting.
How you interpret that for your needs is up to you.
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