school me on lever gun calibers

[WestKentucky]

Quote: Craig C ...

The guns with tube magazines have weaker actions that cannot handle pressures generated in modern cartridges...

Uh, what??? You mean like the 1895 chambered in the .30-06 and .270? Or maybe the 1886 which is proven well north of 50,000psi? Or maybe you meant the 1892 .454 at 65,000psi? That's a pistol cartridge running significantly higher pressures than your favorite cartridge, the .30-06. Maybe you meant the .307 and .356, both running at the same 52,000CUP as the .308, or 2000CUP higher than the `06??? The style of magazine has little to do with the strength of the action.

"Modern cartridges", what does that mean???


Craig beat me to it. The only limiting factor related to the magazine type is bullet type. Lots of great levers have been put through their paces. Cartridges like 45-70, 444 marlin, and even pistol Cartridges guns like 357 mag, 44 mag, 357 max, 45 colt, and a few of their longer-stronger counterparts have proven the selves handy and sufficiently powerful.

Lots of interesting guns out there too. Marlin made a few box-fed levers. Mine in .256winmag is a groundhogs nightmare, but works more than well enough to put a solid whitetail in the freezer while maintaining the level of accuracy most people would only expect from a bolt rifle. The 250 savage (savage 99's cream of the crop) gave birth to the bastard child known as 22-250 today.

 

[BADUNAME71]

don't forget this one too

win 94 in a 32-40 caliber. I love this rifle, 1920 built.
The 32-40 was John Wayne's favorite cartridge and fairly accurate but almost impossible to find commercially. It has a "half" magazine that holds 4 plus one in the chamber..lightweight and easy to handle, well balanced.

 

[The Alaskan]

My favorite

Oh boy, lever guns! My favorite!

I come from a family of Winchester fanatics. Lever gun collectors, almost all of us. I love the lever action design. It's light and easy to carry. The carbines shoulder quick and the lever action is fast. Most guns are pretty accurate out to their specific caliber's effective range. For MOST hunting in America, save for those "out west" hunts, few hunters are shooting game at ranges exceeding a lever gun's capability. In that, a bolt gun is often over kill or less well suited to the task at hand than a lever gun.

Calibers.

As others have stated, lever guns were traditionally pistol cartridges. 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Long Colt...these are all from the black powder days where the first number is caliber and the second number is grains of ffg black powder. There are a LOT of calibers out there in vintage and antique guns. Most of them are obsolete, out of production and will have to be hand loaded. Of these, 32-20 is my favorite, but you have to be careful handloading them. The handguns won't handle the higher pressures of the rifle will. It's about on par with a 38 spl. Fun shooter. Will take down a small deer with good shot placement.

Modern calibers: 38/357, 44 Mag, 454 Casull. I have a 357 and a 44 mag. I love that 44 magnum. I hand load 312 grn cast lead tat shoots about 1600fps. At 100 yards I get under 2 in groups and at 100 yards and it will blow through and though on a moose when hit broadside through the vitals. (Will penetrate to the organs of brown bear. I hope) The heavier 44 is less susceptible to small branches in the path of the bullet and, let's face it...bigger hole going in, more blood coming out. I think, at under 100 yards, the 44 has an edge over the 30-30 for that reason. However, once you stretch it out to 150-200 (probably the limit of a 30-30) the 30-30 has the edge just due to bullet drop and trajectory of the 44. A friend has one in 454, and he claims it will match a 30-06 close in. (100-150 yards) but has the same trajectory issues as the 44 at longer ranges. I chose the 44 over the 454 due to ammo availability and cost.

The 1886 Winchester was the first lever gun designed to handle higher power "rifle" calibers. This is where you start seeing your 45-70 38-55 (later became the 375). The 1895 was the first and only Winchester with a box magazine instead of a tube magazine. This allowed pointed "spitzer" type ammo. 30-06, 7.62x54R (all but unaobtanium, these were a contract for the Russian Tsar), 30-40 Krag, and the 405 Win. (Teddy Roosevelt's "Big Medicine.") I can't recall if he 1894 was the first 30-30 or the 1892 (but those are tube fed guns). BTW...the Hornady Leverevolution soft rubber tipped pointed ammo for lever guns sucks. Save your money.

While we're on the topic of box fed lever guns, the Savage 99 is king of that hill. I've seen them in almost any bolt action caliber imaginable: 243, 308, many others I can't recall at the moment. They had a rotary box magazine and pretty reliable. I don't think they're as "collectable" as vintage Winchesters.

OK. I better shut up now.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

^^ Few things wrong. The 1876 Win was first in rifle calibers. The Marlin 1881 was the first lever 45-70, not the Win 86. The 86 was never chambered in 38-55, the 1894 was. The 92 was never chambered in 30-30 the 94 was.

 

[Speedo66]

As others have stated, lever guns were traditionally pistol cartridges. 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Long Colt...these are all from the black powder days where the first number is caliber and the second number is grains of ffg black powder.

While we're on the topic of box fed lever guns, the Savage 99 is king of that hill. I've seen them in almost any bolt action caliber imaginable: 243, 308, many others I can't recall at the moment. They had a rotary box magazine and pretty reliable. I don't think they're as "collectable" as vintage Winchesters.

Which original black powder lever action was chambered in .45 "long" Colt?

Nice review, but you completely left out the Browning BLR which has been around for over 40 years and comes in an amazing array of calibers suitable for anything from varmints to the biggest NA game. I think it, rather than the Savage 99, is "king of the hill" in box magazine fed lever actions.

 

[StrawHat]

And there's a few still in some of the older "Africa" cartridges. I have a Winchester 1895 in 405 Winchester, which is a rifle and cartridge pairing Theodore Roosevelt took with him on safari. It certainly puts a world of hurt on anything on the receiving end.

As much as I like my 405 WCF, the original cartridge and bullet was not a great cartridge for Africa. It had the power necessary, but a poorly designed bullet that was not as tough as it should have been. Charles Cottar and others are dead because they depended on the old bullets.

I have an 1895 that uses the 405 WCF. I use lead alloy bullets cast to suit the game at hand. Great cartridge!

Kevin

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

+1 on the Savage 99- have one in .243 and love the smooth action and rotary magazine- though if you hunt around a bit you can find them with detachable box mags if that is your thing....just wish mine had the nifty brass cartridge counter feature.

 

[30Cal]

i have not seen anybody mention the 32-20 cartridge.

i had a browning mod 53 in 32-20. the factory lead loading is a dismal failure.

warm hand loads with hornady 60,80 and 100 grn hollowpoints really bring this caliber alive. much more accurate than lead and impressive performance.

Same is true for the 25-20. Great little cartridge that can be loaded down to save meat and pelt.

Unfortunately, brass for that whole series (218 Bee, 25-20, 32-20) is available for maybe one week out of the year.

 

[bannockburn]

For now I like my lever gun to be the same caliber as my single action revolvers; in this case .45 Colt. Eventually I would like to get another Rossi Model 92 carbine in .357 and possibly something in a rifle caliber as well; probably .30-30 or maybe even a .45-70.





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[BADUNAME71]

Bannockburn, those are some beautiful weapons..
Am I the only one here that has a 32-40?

 

[CraigC]

As much as I like my 405 WCF, the original cartridge and bullet was not a great cartridge for Africa. It had the power necessary, but a poorly designed bullet that was not as tough as it should have been. Charles Cottar and others are dead because they depended on the old bullets.

The modern Hornady bullets suck too. With a 300gr Woodleigh, North Fork or a heavy cast bullet, it really IS serious medicine.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

The modern Hornady bullets suck too. With a 300gr Woodleigh, North Fork or a heavy cast bullet, it really IS serious medicine.

Agreed. If I were going on safari tomorrow, the 405 Win would lose out to my 375 H&H, but my main point was to demonstrate that lever guns do come in some very serious calibers that have been used to good effect in the past. Certainly, I would have confidence in my 1895 anywhere in North America (it's darn accurate and with the right bullet, very potent). IIRC, I think TR used the 405 on lion but likely had something a little more potent for some of the other big five.

 

[CraigC]

With the right bullet, I would use the .405 on anything up to Cape buffalo. I'd like to see if the 400gr Woodleigh has any potential in it.

However, I do plan on at least a .416Rigby when the time comes.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Bannockburn, those are some beautiful weapons..
Am I the only one here that has a 32-40?

Ron,ar-
No you are not. 32-40, 1901 production half oct/ round. The tang peep is factory original. Shoots 1 inch at 50 yards with my dwindling supply of John Wayne commemorative ammo.


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[The Alaskan]

Jim, thanks for the corrections.

Speedo, yeah I left stuff out because it wasn't Winchester. Browning and Marlin aren't my strong suit, so I didn't discuss them. For me, it's Winchester or nothing. =)

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Not at all Alaskan I am also a Win nut see my post above yours

 

[BCRider]

I'm just "listening" along with the OP, mainecoon, since my firearm collection doesn't yet include a lever gun. Great - and animated - discussion!! I'm learning a lot in a little time. Thanks folks, from a lever gun noobie.

If you shoot a revolver already then your choice for a fun plinker is already made. It's just a question of which flavour of rifle in the same caliber you will choose. If your goal is to hunt then look at the Browning BLR or possibly a nice vintage 1895 that is chambered in a cartridge you already have for other rifles.

Or if you don't really know and believe deep down in your soul that someday .22LR will once again be widely available at reasonable prices look at a rimfire lever....

I'm a huge fan of levers, bolt action and single shot rifles. I only own two semi auto rifles and I could happily give those up in a blink. I just like having the need to DO something for each shot I take. And for this the lever rifles are second only to my love of single shot rifles. The ONLY time I prefer a bolt action to my levers is for shooting at long distances that simply demand the use of a rest and bench. Then the lever path during cycling just gets in the way.

 

[mainecoon]

Hey, thanks everyone for the info. This is awesome. Now just need a lever gun

 

[Dirty Bob]

In a rifle caliber, I'd look first at the venerable -- but still relevant, useful, and easy to find -- .30-30. With a 150-170 grain bullet, it's fine for deer, but .30-30 isn't hard to handload, and cast bullets give you almost endless choices, from squirrel and plinking loads to heavy bullet loads suitable for black bear or hogs.

If you have a revolver or are planning to get one, I'd advise a lever gun in the same caliber. I absolutely love shooting the .45 Colt in a long-barreled '92. I shoot it exclusively with cast bullet handloads. It's accurate and hits hard with mild recoil and not much more noise than a .22LR.

If I could have only one rifle, it would be a .357 Magnum Winchester 1892, or a clone of that same rifle. It does just about anything I need from a centerfire rifle, and with light loads it competes with the rimfires.

BTW: Jim in Alaska, that is a drop-dead beautiful '94! Thank you so much for sharing!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[Malamute]

and 45-70 is the "blow everything to smithereens" caliber.

Wait,...what? I've shot quite a bit of small game with 45-70's and cast bullets. It makes a large hole through them, it doesnt blow anything up. A round ball and light charge of Unique also makes a nice grouse and small game load with little noise.

The 400 gr factory loads were mentioned as just making deer load power. Before the boutique loads were available, they were considered useful for about any large game, the main issue being trajectory past about 150 yards. Handloaders of course knew of stouter loads, but I dont recall anyone questioning if the factory 400s would kill moose or any other large animal. Keith mentioned them, and said theyd shoot to the middle or farther on big bears (defining big bears as big alaskan bears). Stout handloads were better, but the factory loads would do the job.

If you get the browning BLR lever action it is magazine fed...

I'm thinking you meant box magazine fed? By definition, any rifle thats not a single shot has a magazine other than a revolver type.

 

[rromeo]

I really want one of those Henry 44's but not at $700. just saw two Marlin 1894's at a show last month for $355- $375, both were pre safety, one pre- warning like the one I already own , , my next lever might just be a Rossi

You could have sold one of those Marlins on Gunbroker and had enough to buy that Henry and the other Marlin.

 

[VThillman]

Uh, what??? You mean like the 1895 chambered in the .30-06 and .270? Or maybe the 1886 which is proven well north of 50,000psi? Or maybe you meant the 1892 .454 at 65,000psi? That's a pistol cartridge running significantly higher pressures than your favorite cartridge, the .30-06. Maybe you meant the .307 and .356, both running at the same 52,000CUP as the .308, or 2000CUP higher than the `06??? The style of magazine has little to do with the strength of the action.

"Modern cartridges", what does that mean???



How exactly is a .30-30 "much more powerful" than the .45/70, .45/90 and .50/110.



What??? You must also think that the .308 is marginally better than the .30WCF? Which is almost identical to the .30-06 so by your logic, the .30-06 is marginally better than the .30WCF. The .356 and .375 in particular are much better suited to larger game.



Good Lord, man! "Minimum" for deer??? I'd love to hear the logic upon which that statement is based?

Point of order!! the 1895 Winchester does not have a 'tubular' magazine.

[I would have trimmed the quote if I new how]

 

[dancitizen]

45/70 - With the proper load, it's more than adequate for any North American game within its range limitations.

The 45/70 is not exactly a short range cartridge.

 

[CraigC]

Point of order!! the 1895 Winchester does not have a 'tubular' magazine.

I know, I have one in .405WCF. But it is a traditional levergun (not a BLR or Winchester 88) that is often forgotten in these discussions.

 

[StrawHat]

The 45/70 is not exactly a short range cartridge.

For target work, no it is not. But for hunting, most prefer to keeps shots within 150 yards as the game may move a lot in the time it takes the bullet to arrive where you aimed it. Me, I prefer to stalk as close as I can get and then try to get a little closer. Spooked some game doing this but always have a good hunt.

Kevin