School shooting in Finland

[dmazur]

The politicians just don't have the integrity to speak the truth - senseless violence is tragic, and cannot be prevented. They seek public approval, and "tightening gun laws" seems to get them that, even though it is a flat-out lie.

As mentioned, the media is the other culprit. In a "Dirty Harry" movie, Inspector Callahan directed the cameras be turned off and told the would-be-suicide that he wasn't going to be on the 10 o'clock news. That was fantasy, as so much of his character's behavior was fantasy. In real-life, nobody steps forward to muzzle the media's inappropriate behavior.

What is unfortunate is that some basic ethics and intelligence test isn't required for either of these positions - public official or news director.

 

[Green Lantern]

The version I read also mentioned trampling internet privacy, as well as gun control...!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7632661.stm

Mr Vanhanen said authorities would also look at whether there needed to be changes in internet monitoring.

Matti Vanhanen
Matti Vanhanen vowed to look at gun and internet laws

He said: "The internet and YouTube forums... are not another planet. This is part of our world and we adults have the responsibility to check what is happening, and create borders and safety there."

Y'know, I'm addicted to the Finnish metal band Nightwish...and liked them more after hearing 'The Kinslayer.' It's a song about Columbine, with NO anti-gun message whatsoever. It actually focused on how screwed up the KILLERS were..and how they could have been driven to that point: "Time to die, poor mates, You made me what I am!"

And they didn't actually WRITE "Over The Hills And Far Away," but I love the moral of the song. In a nutshell, "If you live in a country with gun registration...for pete's sake, DO NOT leave it laying around where your best friend can get ahold of it and use it to frame you for a crime....while you're sleeping with his wife!!!

 

[Medusa]

Just a thought for the anti-gunners: 8 of 10 victims were women (police thinks so), gunned down and torched. As said, some are too much burnt to be easily identifiable (even the gender). It's still a bad idea to allow carrying in campuses, in case some fellow in your country looses it and tries harder?

 

[Calibre44]

Interesting article - here

 

[JackW]

I read that it took police ten minutes to get to the school, of course that is 9 minutes and 58 seconds too late. I am assuming it is impossible or near impossible for someone to legally carry a handgun in Finland, like most of Europe.

No it's more like 10 minutes and 1 second too late. I read an article that said while gun violence is rare, violent attacks are not. (I'll look for it and post a link). There are many cases of stabbings and beatings in Finland.

 

[miko]

Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22? Did the victims cooperate, like many in VT massacre - by sitting still and waiting for him to approach and deliver an aimed point-blank shot?

miko

 

[Cosmoline]

I heard about this on the world service last night. The BEEB reporters were practically warmed their hands in the afterglow. They are pushing hard for a total ban as the only sensible response.

 

[Patrick Henry]

Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22?

May I respectfully suggest that a .22 is a deadly weapon? Despite the deluge of BS to the contrary. I can't wait to read the excuses they come up with on the 1911 forum...

But I also have not seen any report yet of the number of wounded, only killed. He could have wounded far more than he killed with it.

By the way, I quite agree that it's a tragedy, and also fully agree that it's blown out of proportion. The comparison to drunk driving is fully apt -- if I'm not mistaken Finland has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. When are they going to ban vodka?

Although I do find it interesting that when the 1st "massacre" happened a year ago, according to the reports, the Finnish attitude was essentially "well, sometimes sh*t happens." There were no gun law changes.

Of course the BBC has jumped all over this.

Yeah...if you'll pardon the expression, screw Britain. British media love criticizing the United States, and always have. Apart from ancient history, America has almost nothing in common with Britain. The idea that we are "natural allies" is complete BS. I think Washington & Co. had it right 200 years ago when they freed us from those inbred old bags and their parliamentary tyranny.

Sorry for the diatribe.

Yemen is listed #2 in gun ownership behind the US.

Yemen rocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI_AGXb1-Ec

They may be dirt poor, but they're more free than Americans today.

 

[igor]

Erik, this is false:

He joined a gun club, practised and trained there, waited and got his license for a .22, and bought the gun legally, to have for plinking and competing.

The murderer never joined a club and all proof of any training are the plinking videos he uploaded. Joining a club is not a prerequisite for gun ownership in Finland - just about the only constitutionally protected part of the process. Saari got his .22 licence with minimal hassle, an application and a short interview took care of it, as is the current practice.

Saari was kicked out of the army once, due to return to see if he'll finish his service November this year. That's the only tangible earlier proof of any problems he had that is known at this point.

JackW, the Finnish violence stats as such are quite bad. The reality though is that the overwhelming bulk of stabbings, beatings etc. happens within the heavy drinking subculture and doesn't really affect the average citizen's life at all. There is precious little armed violence, robberies or such. The burglary rate is low and home invasions are just about nonexistent - thanks to the prevalence of firearms in homes, so far. Carrying is categorically not allowed, only transport in a legit purpose - going to the range or hunting, and getting back.

The Finnish gun laws have been quite good. Owning and using anything has been in principal possible until recently. There is a clearly observable campaign to tighten the practices ongoing, though. New collector permits have gotten even more rare (full auto available for very select collectors only) and several jurisdictions have taken a bullying practice in handling licencing even for long-time, serious sportsmen.

This repeat event is major bad for the future. The media are hysterical and so is the public opinion. All kinds of really-out-there suggestions have been voiced, such as organizing some kind of central warehousing of privately owned firearms. That is an obvious no-go; or would amount to a de facto ban if pursued.

There is a tad of hope in the initial statements on the gun laws though - the Interior Minister Holmlund did clearly state that a categorical ban of handguns wouldn't be practically possible. It is very likely that the entry threshold to owning firearms will be heightened considerably. The laws were under revision in any case due to a final harmonizing round with the EU directives.

Oh, and the #3 ranking in gun ownership is baloney too. The Swiss "researchers" extrapolated as to the Finnish as they failed to do as to Yemen... in reality, there are about 27 guns per 100 citizens in Finland and approx. 12% of the people are the actual owners. The register is pretty well up-to-date which the Swiss summarily ignored. In Yemen OTOH there are more than one gun per inhabitant as per _their_ own authorities, so there goes...

 

[ErikS]

Igor,
you're right, my mistake.

The Finnish gunlaw, 5kap 45$ only says the person has to be over 18 and give reliable statement of his hobby.

 

[igor]

Yep. There is an additional set of guidelines that was introduced after the previous incident, albeit only coincidentally - it was already prepared and going to be introduced anyway. As per those, an interview by police should now be mandatory for first-timers.

Patrick H., the murderer killed ten and wounded only one - she was shot in the head but seems to be surviving. In the tight quarters of a class room, against unarmed victims, a .22 is indeed nothing short of lethal. All the victims but two were female, too.

 

[The Scandinavian]

Here's an interesting list:

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

I wonder if such a link might have existed in this case?

When a similar incident happened here in Finland back in November the perp. was reported to be taking this type of medication.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

She says police released him because they had no legal reason to keep him detained.

On Google news this has now become the big issue with gun control fading out,

Looks like the same circumstances VTech had.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think this could have easily been stopped if CCW were allowed.

And I think the media shouldn't show this at all, ot at least shouldn't mention his name.
Might prevent this from happening again.
My prayers go out to the victims.

 

[Mr. James]

"The present shooter is a young adult, and so we cannot say the teachers are responsible," Hautamäki said.

No, you twit, you cannot say the teachers are responsible. Nor are the police, the local parish church, the Interior Ministry, the Education Ministry, or Carl Walther GmbH. There is only one person responsible, the "young adult," Matti Saari, and he chose a coward's end.

 

[igor]

The discussion on gun laws in Finland is frenetic. There are local council elections coming up, and all the parties are out for brownie points.

I just witnessed a truly weird situation in a very big talk show, where a local police chief was urging colleagues of his to break the law by imposing a moratorium on all handgun permits pending new instructions from the home office - with the minister of interior, his ultimate superior, on the other side of the table defending prudence and enhanced calm on any knee jerk reactions to legislation.

This is pure unadulterated panic. They're fixing everything in sight which isn't broken and ignoring the complication which isn't readily comprehensible, let alone actionable. The implications will be bad.

A true panic reaction was recent news where the Shooters' nat'l federation president and the Finnish IPSC RD went public pronouncing that .22 plinkers could be banned in their opinion. Oh boy, will those guys ever be sorry.

I hear they do kind of Practical shooting with airsoft in Taiwan or wherever...

 

[igor]

.....

 

[Catherine]

Quote from Patrick Henry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by miko
Are there any details on the shooting? How the heck did he achieve such lethality with a .22?

May I respectfully suggest that a .22 is a deadly weapon? Despite the deluge of BS to the contrary. I can't wait to read the excuses they come up with on the 1911 forum...

But I also have not seen any report yet of the number of wounded, only killed. He could have wounded far more than he killed with it.

By the way, I quite agree that it's a tragedy, and also fully agree that it's blown out of proportion. The comparison to drunk driving is fully apt -- if I'm not mistaken Finland has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. When are they going to ban vodka?

Although I do find it interesting that when the 1st "massacre" happened a year ago, according to the reports, the Finnish attitude was essentially "well, sometimes sh*t happens." There were no gun law changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCsmitty
Of course the BBC has jumped all over this.
Yeah...if you'll pardon the expression, screw Britain. British media love criticizing the United States, and always have. Apart from ancient history, America has almost nothing in common with Britain. The idea that we are "natural allies" is complete BS. I think Washington & Co. had it right 200 years ago when they freed us from those inbred old bags and their parliamentary tyranny.

Sorry for the diatribe.

Quote:
Yemen is listed #2 in gun ownership behind the US.
Yemen rocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI_AGXb1-Ec

They may be dirt poor, but they're more free than Americans today.
__________________
One man with courage makes a majority -- Andrew Jackson

~~~~~


Patrick Henry,

BINGO! Thank you sir!

I am sorry to hear about the loss of life. My condolences to all concerned.

PEOPLE KILL and they kill using ANY object or tool including vehicles.

Catherine

 

[LAR-15]

A true panic reaction was recent news where the Shooters' nat'l federation president and the Finnish IPSC RD went public pronouncing that .22 plinkers could be banned in their opinion. Oh boy, will those guys ever be sorry.

Your kidding right??

Gun owners should never cave or panic

 

[hillosipuli]

Nope, this is true. Only phrase that comes to my mind concernig this is "breaking under pressure". With these banning statements however, I fear that the pressure has not yet peaked. Not even close.

As Igor said, will those guys ever be sorry

A very annoying thing is the way of thinking that cheap .22lr pistols should be banned, but expensive competition guns should remain intact.
This is sad. Very sad. Somehow this brings to my mind the echoes we are hearing from England, somethin like "Only the cheap samurai-swords should be banned, the expensive ones are no threat to anyone"...

"Welcome to shooting sports, but only if you can afford it"?!

 

[Shung]

NO DEMOCRACY should ever vote and change laws or rules under the pressure of emotions.

It would be like voting for allowing or not the construction of minarets in Switzerland, september 12, 2001.

 

[Luomu]

I think this could have easily been stopped if CCW were allowed.

No argument there. That is, however, not politically feasible here.

 

[Shung]

not politally correct in Switzerland neither.. Peope think that banning firearms will make them disapear.. When you know that in Switzerland there are more guns than people, you wonder what drugs the antis are taking..

carrying was legal in Switzerland before 1999.. they decided to forbid it.. nobody knows why, and nobody has seen a drop i already rare gun violence yet..

 

[igor]

LAR-15, I dearly wish I had been kidding.

There are some glimpses of hope though. The Interior minister has at least stated clearly that a sweeping ban wouldn't make sense.

They will be increasing the hoops to jump for first time permit applicants considerably, which I don't consider a bad thing either... before flaming me for that, do bear in mind that Finland already has just about fully covering registration of both gun owners and each individual firearm.

 

[LAR-15]

Well if they are talking about banning .22s such as the Browning Buck Mark, then that does scare me.

Those are solid guns for target and plinking (assuming hunting and trapping with handguns is verboten in Finland)

Slippery slope