SD Shooting in Houston - 6/18/09

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bababooey32

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Officials: Harris man fatally shoots teen at home
A homeowner who had twice ordered a teenager to leave the property — once while holding a rifle — shot the teen dead after the boy refused to leave and walked toward him, authorities said. “He feared for his life,” said Harris County sheriff’s Lt. Rolf Nelson.

Dwayne Austgen, 69, was inside his north Harris County home in the 5500 block of Susanna around 10:30 a.m. Wednesday when he noticed a teenager in his front yard, officials said. The man went outside, confronted 17-year-old Vidal Herrera, and told him to leave, authorities said.

After the teen left the property, Austgen noticed Herrera had left a crack cocaine pipe, officials said. Austgen then went back inside his home, taking the pipe with him, officials said.

A short while later, Herrera returned to the home, confronted Austgen about the pipe, and the pair argued, officials said. Austgen, this time holding a rifle, again ordered the teen to leave, officials said.

Herrera began to walk away but then approached the homeowner, who fired the .22-caliber rifle, striking the teen in the abdomen, officials said. Herrera was taken to Memorial Hermann Hospital, where he died.

The case will be referred to a Harris County grand jury without charges.
emphasis mine

Two things to discuss here:

1) Validity of the shoot: On first pass all seems well. After hearing more details, it appears that the homeowner may have "escalated by approaching the BG initially. While it may be a legal shoot, did the homeowner handle the situation correctly from a tactical standpoint?

2) Yet another fatal .22 shooting. This time to the stomach. I was scolded by some .45 fanatic a few days agofor suggesting that .22 is capable of "stopping", given the correct confluence of circumstances. I know caliber wars are verboten (or at least boring), but seems to me that there is mounting anecdotal evidence that a bullet is a bullet is a bullet. Mrginal advantages here and there, but ultimately getting shot is likely to kill you.

Discuss amongst yourselves.....
 
I personally have never had to use a firearm on another human being in SD or otherwise. However, I truly have come to agree with your statement that "a bullet is a bullet."

I think some of the most (shall we say "spirited") debate is when you try to get into one shot instant kills. I am convinced that NO handgun is capable of this, unless you get a headshot / heartshot.

Some rifles could do the instant kill, but again, it is much more likely if shot placement is on the money.

So, it really doesn't matter which caliber you use. If it hits you in the brain or the heart, you're most likely not going to survive.

Anyways....I digress. The point is, a good guy did what he had to do and the bullet did its job. I bet the poor guy didn't die immediately, but who cares! The bullet stopped the perp from doing what he was going to do. Good enough for me!
 
I think the homeowner may be in trouble.

Did he call police? If so, at what point in this series of events?

I see no link to the original article . . . more information would help.
 
1) Validity of the shoot: On first pass all seems well. After hearing more details, it appears that the homeowner may have "escalated by approaching the BG initially. While it may be a legal shoot, did the homeowner handle the situation correctly from a tactical standpoint?

You seem to indicate that the homeowner did wrong by approaching the interloper because that may have escalated the situation. This notion of "escalation" of often quite silly. We hear it over and over again to not escalate situations and we hear praise over and over again for those that do. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, anything you do that adds more power to a situation or increases the aggressive attitude of the bad guy could be considering escalating the situation. Anytime you defend yourself against a threat, you have escalated the situation, ideally with the goal of de-escalating the situation, but the situation escalates before it de-escalates.

Few confrontational situations where one party knows they are in the wrong intentionally (such as with this interloper), if any, ever result in immediate de-escalation without first enduring escalation unless it is through some form of submissive capitulation or bribery.

So this notion of the homeowner "escalating" the situation by approaching the interloper initially is awfully judgmental. So what if he did? Don't we have the right to approach people on our own property that we don't want there, or do we have to call the cops? If the cops come, they will escalate the situation by approaching the interloper. Sure, then it is by the cops and that is what they are paid to do, but do you really need the cops every time you have to approach a stranger about a subject that may not be agreeable to the stranger?

The way I see it, the homeowner didn't escalate the situation by approaching the stranger. The stranger escalated the situation by being on somebody else's property. The homeowner simply tried to de-escalate the situation by verbally engaging the the interloper on the matter of leaving the property, thereby helping to safeguard the property and its human occupants.

So if the homeowner did anything wrong, it was the collection of the crack pipe. On that matter, he should have called the cops as possession of said item (apparently used, hence having residue) would be unlawful. So he should have called the cops to collect the contraband.

Mrginal advantages here and there, but ultimately getting shot is likely to kill you.
To suggest that getting shot will result in you likely getting killed, when speaking of .22 lr, isn't on base. "Likely" means that something is probable, not just possible, but probable. With .22 lr, that just isn't the case. With most shootings, that isn't the case.

A .22 lr is still considered lethal force. It can kill a person, but it isn't likely to kill them unless vital structures are hit and medical attention isn't gained.

2) Yet another fatal .22 shooting. This time to the stomach. I was scolded by some .45 fanatic a few days agofor suggesting that .22 is capable of "stopping", given the correct confluence of circumstances.

Was this a "stop" per se? All we know is that the interloper was approaching the homeowner. The homeowner may have rightfully feared for his life and used lethal force legally. I am not arguing against that point at all. However, the interloper may have wanted nothing more than to yell at the homeowner and getting closer is part of posturing and getting a point across. So the fact that he might have been stopped from getting his point across would not be the same thing as being stopped whilst trying to hack to death the homeowner with a hatchet.
 
You know, it's situations like this that have started me thinking about other means to end a confrontation. IMO, in this case, a big can of Fox in my left hand and a pistol (a .22 rifle even) in my right would have given me more options. It appears that the homeowner had ample opportunity to call 911, as well.

That said, anyone who continue to approach someone when at gun point begs the question, "What is the person's mental state and what are his/her intentions?" and would potentially elevate themselves to someone to fear.
 
Yet another fatal .22 shooting. This time to the stomach. I was scolded by some .45 fanatic a few days agofor suggesting that .22 is capable of "stopping", given the correct confluence of circumstances.

Do you mean "stopping" or "killing"? FYI - these are two different things. You can shoot soemone and they can run up and stab you, then die of the gunshot four hours later.
This is "killing" someone, yet it doesn't really do you much good, does it? If they have enough time to stab you, eat a sandwich, and get to the hospital before it happens, what's the point of shooting them in the first place? You can brag all day about how the good ol' .22 can kill a man just as well as a .45 ACP.

I want to "stop" them from harming me. I don't carry a .45 because it "kills" better. I carry it because it puts a BIG HOLE IN THEM causing them to "stop" better. You're right. The .22 is probably just as effective at "killing".

I want them to "stop". NOW. Not after they stab me, eat a sandwich, and bleed to death.
 
That dude had no compassion, man. Since they closed down the headshops you can't get those crack pipes just anywhere. And that one might have had sentimental value.
 
The fact that the BG had a crack pipe will really help out the homeowner here. First, neither the police (or potentially a jury if went that far) will have much sympathy for a crack head. Second, the homeowner can use the existance of the crack pipe to justify his fear of being in danger, arguing that the BG was a known criminal and possibly under the influence of a drug that could cause him to act dangerously and unpredictably.
 
Yeah, the crack pipe I think will make the difference. At first I was thinking the guy over reacted. Then when it mentioned that the kid was a likely crack head... Those folks are WILDLY unpredictable.

FYI, this is a neighborhood in Houston that the cops wouldn't get to in 5 minutes... It would take them a lot longer, or at least it has in the past. I doubt that the people living in that area THINK "OMG, someone is my yard, I should call the cops" anymore.
 
Once, just once, I would like to see the headline read something like

"Homeowner Successfully Defends Himself Against Trespassing Drug User"

But it ain't gonna happen. :fire:
 
who fired the .22-caliber rifle, striking the teen in the abdomen

it seems to me that everyone thinks the rifle was 22lr. the article just says .22-caliber rifle. this could mean 223 remington or other 22 cal cartridge.... maybe i'm wrong though.
 
DNS

You seem to indicate that the homeowner did wrong by approaching the interloper because that may have escalated the situation.

I'm not sure if he did or not...I was asking for a discussion on the subject. Legally, I think he's fine. I am asking if, froma tactical standpoint, he could have handled the situation better. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something!

I submit that the homeowner may have avoided needing to use his weapon had he retreated to the safety of his home and called police. Perhaps the circumstances developed to quickly for that to happen.

As to the question of escalation, my understanding of a gun owner's responsibility is that he/she may not escalate a situation to the point where deadly force becomes necessary. Reading Ayoob and others, it is clear that the first option should always be to avoid the confrontation altogether. In this case, the homeowner (perhaps rightfully) confronted the interloper twice, the second time with a gun. Again, he is likely justified in his actions under the law (here in TX), but he DID escalate both by approaching the interloper and "drawing" his weapon.
 
Superlite

Do you mean "stopping" or "killing"? FYI - these are two different things

Yes, I know. And there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that .22 is quite capable of the former. I understand that data is not the plural of anecdote, but there is not much data in any case for any caliber (else this discussion would be moot).

If they have enough time to stab you, eat a sandwich, and get to the hospital before it happens, what's the point of shooting them in the first place

I must have missed that part of the article. My understanding from the article is that the BG was stopped by the .22 gunshot to the abdomen.

I carry it because it puts a BIG HOLE IN THEM causing them to "stop" better.

Again, there's no evidence that, in and of itself, a larger hole means an instant stop. Where that hole is located, the demeanor of the BG and many other factors come into play. All things being equal, I'd rather have the larger caliber, but in the end, a gun is a gun and they all hurt and all have the capability to stop a bg, if all the same factors conflate in a given circumstance.
 
So if the homeowner did anything wrong, it was the collection of the crack pipe. On that matter, he should have called the cops as possession of said item (apparently used, hence having residue) would be unlawful. So he should have called the cops to collect the contraband.

I agree. Bad idea to become the owner of drug paraphernalia. I would have put it directly into a trash can.
 
yep - 22 cal can be 223...

or the reporter/s could have simply been wrong

could have been a .27 caliber rifle ( .270 ) and that would definitely drop nearly anything in the lower 48 states

I always tell folks I only have a .22 rifle...
 
My understanding from the article is that the BG was stopped by the .22 gunshot to the abdomen.
We don't know if the BG was stopped because the facts aren't clear whether the BG was even attacking the homeowner. That's the reason for the above discussion on whether the homeowner's actions are legally justified.

All we know is that the BG was "walking towards" the homeowner. Now, if the BG had been running at the homeowner with a raised knife and an unquestionable intent to kill, I would agree with you that the BG was stopped.

In all honesty, my best guess for what happened here is that the homeowner shot the crack head because he didn't get off his property after being asked repeatedly, and the "I feared for my life" was just his cover story, but that's nothing more than my own conjecture.
 
Hmm...Escalation. I would think the doper escalated the situation from peace to trespassing on the first encounter, and from peace to trespassing to argument to aggression on the second encounter.

That's giving the kid a pass when he escalated his ignorance to idiocy when he took up smoking dope.

Woody
 
as long as the BG was "coming" toward V then V will be ok.

Homeowner does not have a duty to retreat ESPECIALLY NOT IN TEXAS.

as long as the "coming toward you" checks out you will be ok.

The other thing is this seems like a prolonged interaction which IMO would favor the homeowner. If you are continually harassed on YOUR PROPERTY and you give a warning then the moment you are approached it is probably reasonable for you to defend yourself.

If someone is on your property you don't have to call the police and in fact in some places you can be assessed a fee for calling the police.
 
.22 Rifle

Wouldn't be my first choice.

The good news has two elements: 1) the rifle did the job, and the media isn't screaming ASSAULT RIFLE! and 2) he only fired the one shot.

With the facts currently to hand, it looks like a righteous shoot.

I went to the chron.com site and read the story and a bunch of comments.

I was surprised at the number of folks who sympathized in one fashion or another with the "slain teen" rather than the "successful home defense" guy.

Words like "sad" and "too bad" and "awful" can be found in the comments.

I'm afraid I can't muster much in the way of sympathy for the "teen" in this case.

I've seen too many emo-inclined teens (and older, actually) go into "acting out" convinced that a display of anger excuses anything they do. Later they can just claim "well, he/they made me really mad, so I was angry when I did/said that, and you can't hold it against me."

Every so often one of them misjudges the person he chooses to "go off" on, and he gets the living crap beat out of him, and then he can't understand why anyone would be that mean.

Add an addiction to your favorite drug, and the emo-aggro thing just gets worse.

They honestly don't think there will be consequences. So many people will just get out of their way when they throw a tantrum that it becomes a matter of method.

I mean, really, I have sat and listened to some of my youngest daughter's "friends" rant on about how unfair it was that someone put an abrupt and physical stop to some tantrum they had thrown.

You can't argue with them. They have truth on their side, and you're just OLD.

 
I'm interested to see how this plays out. I'm not convinced that the laws in TX allow the use of lethal force against what from what I've read to trespassing and possible verbal threats. I think that Sections 9.31, 9.41, and 9.42 cover it, and I can't see where it's justified, although I've only spent about 10 minutes looking at it.

The outcome will be interesting b/c of the message it sends to ne'er–do–wells, and I'm not loosing sleep over it.
 
rino451

These are good points. 9.31 seems to say that you can defend yourself a) in your home (NOT property, but "habitation") or if against the BGs use or attempted use of force. Not clear in this case if a threat was made to the homeowner, other than the BG approaching (which may be enough).

However, 9.42 saya that I may use force to "prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property." FRom what we knoe, it appears the BG was infact trespassing and/or attempting to burglarize the homeowner's vehicle. Both are justifications for use of force in TX.

9.42 makes 9.41 all the more powerful by allowing deadly force to be used.

Legally this seems like a good shoot. My biggest question, still, is whether this was tactically a good shoot.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it!!
 
tactically, what i see as the homeowners biggest mistake (besides his poor choice of neighborhoods) was taking the teens property into his house. if i had an item, particularly an item that might be used against myself in a court of law, i would want it back. an even bigger mistake may have been not calling the police for said item.
 
Working in the forensics 22 cal is one of the most dangerous calibers to get shot with. Not only does it enter the body at a high velocity it splits into hundreds pieces causing immediate blood infection. Other calibers when do split they go into 5, 6 fragments and stay in tact for the most part. If they hit organ tissue they do not split and just cause a wound not infecting the blood which is the fastest way to cause a fatalities.
 
Working in the forensics 22 cal is one of the most dangerous calibers to get shot with. Not only does it enter the body at a high velocity it splits into hundreds pieces causing immediate blood infection. Other calibers when do split they go into 5, 6 fragments and stay in tact for the most part. If they hit organ tissue they do not split and just cause a wound not infecting the blood which is the fastest way to cause a fatalities.

What are you talking about? Unless the .22 lr rounds you are talking about are carrying biological weapons on board, they don't cause blood infection by simply entering the body. Break into hundreds of pieces? Really? Please, show me the data to prove this.
 
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