TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
We've made it no fun for them here, they are looking for easier hunting grounds.
I don't think they found it in Tyler.
Texas Homeowner shoots Home Intruder
- Thread starter MarkDido
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We've made it no fun for them here, they are looking for easier hunting grounds.
I don't think they found it in Tyler.
Why would it cost you $10k or $50k to have the grand jury hear it? Potential defendants do not have to pay court fees. There isn't any point to hire a lawyer for the grand jury because neither the potential defendant nor his lawyer are allowed in the grand jury proceedings (see Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Art. 20.011). What would you need to spend $10k or $50k on?
Big Calhoun
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Now you've confused me even more!!!
In my CHL class, our instructor was saying that for a clean shoot, it would cost the average citizen $50,000 to go through the 'process'. Now granted, he didn't provide details of what that process entails or how that figure is broken down.
So after some discussion here throughout various threads, that cost was lowered to approx. $8000 - $10,000. Hence why I'm saying that if it's a clean shoot, it would seem like a waste to both parties in terms of time and money just to get a no-bill.
I'll have to find a lawyer I can talk to without paying his hourly since it's just for edification purposes.
Perhaps "the process," as defined by your instructor, includes civil suits?
I agree that a clean shoot shouldn't cost the shooter a penny. My point was that the Texas requirement (if it is a requirement) of having all shootings go to a grand jury doesn't cost the shooter anything.
Nicolai
Member
San Antonio paper this a.m. (Monday, 13 Nov) ran the article from Big Calhoun's earlier post. Headline was "Student killed forcing way into home."
Yep, I know "innocent until proven guilty," but why is someone with felony charges for engaging in organized crime and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon allowed to be out so he can run amok in a Tyler neighborhood? (Rhetorical question, folks--I'm just a little frustrated that someone who seems to be a bad guy gets to be a "student" in a headline.)
Yep, I know "innocent until proven guilty," but why is someone with felony charges for engaging in organized crime and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon allowed to be out so he can run amok in a Tyler neighborhood? (Rhetorical question, folks--I'm just a little frustrated that someone who seems to be a bad guy gets to be a "student" in a headline.)
I'm just glad that the homeowner did what he had to do to protect himself and his family. I sincerely hope that this ordeal will be behind him soon.
Even if there is another "shoe to be dropped" as stated in a previous post. There is not an excuse for caving in someone's door in the middle of the night. (Without first identifying yourself and receiving your verbal warning.)
Even if there is another "shoe to be dropped" as stated in a previous post. There is not an excuse for caving in someone's door in the middle of the night. (Without first identifying yourself and receiving your verbal warning.)
Here's the story that was on local TV last night (and a link):
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5669455
11/12/06-Tyler
Friends Of Deceased UT Tyler Student Say They Don't Believe He Was A Would-Be Burglar
Friends of a UT Tyler student who was fatally shot during an alleged break-in say they think they know why it happened.
Police say the shooting happened when Justin Herrera, 22, of Tyler was trying to break-in into a South Tyler home early yesterday morning in the 900 block of Watkins Street. According to police reports, the homeowner, Robert Delk, was woken up by someone banging on his door. Officials say Herrera kicked in the front door. Police say Delk shot and killed Herrera. Herrera was pronounced dead at a local hospital.
Herrera's friends, who were with him earlier that night, spoke exclusively to KLTV 7 News. They say they think he was trying to get help at the home, not burglarize it.
About 2:30 yesterday morning, Nathan McCrary and Brian Johnson say they left Herrera at a party. They say he had been drinking pretty heavily.
"I know he had bought a 30 pack maybe three hours earlier, but I know he didn't bring that much with him. I'm assuming he might have had eight or nine (beers)," said McCrary.
Early the next morning, the two found out Herrera had been shot and killed when he allegedly tried to break-in to a home just a few blocks away.
"We called the guy who was supposed to take him home, and he told us that Justin had been dancing with a girl who had a boyfriend," Johnson said. "Evidently, she told her boyfriend or he saw, and he and some of his friends decided to beat him up."
"I believe Justin, being hurt like he was, just ran away," said McCrary. "I think he went and tried to get help, and being Hispanic like he is, someone would see him out of their window with no shirt on, think it might be gang related."
Herrera was new to East Texas, having moved here from Ft. Worth. He was a biology major at UT Tyler, and a waiter at Papacita's restaurant. His boss, Lynn Lumley, says Herrera was one of the best employees she's ever had. "He always had a good disposition. He was always on time. He was consistently working well. He showed others how to work," said Lumley.
Herrera's past was not squeaky clean. He'd been in and out of jail in Tarrant County a number of times since 2001. His 14-page criminal background includes aggravated assault, car burglary and two D.W.I. charges.
The friends he made in Tyler say he was trying to make a fresh start. "He was an awesome guy. He wasn't doing drugs or anything. Then to hear on the news that he was trying to rob the place was a little shocking," said Johnson.
KLTV 7 News spoke with the homeowner, Robert Delk. He said he did not want to comment on the shooting. The case is under investigation. No charges have been filed.
Lindsay Wilcox, Reporting. [email protected]
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5669455
11/12/06-Tyler
Friends Of Deceased UT Tyler Student Say They Don't Believe He Was A Would-Be Burglar
Friends of a UT Tyler student who was fatally shot during an alleged break-in say they think they know why it happened.
Police say the shooting happened when Justin Herrera, 22, of Tyler was trying to break-in into a South Tyler home early yesterday morning in the 900 block of Watkins Street. According to police reports, the homeowner, Robert Delk, was woken up by someone banging on his door. Officials say Herrera kicked in the front door. Police say Delk shot and killed Herrera. Herrera was pronounced dead at a local hospital.
Herrera's friends, who were with him earlier that night, spoke exclusively to KLTV 7 News. They say they think he was trying to get help at the home, not burglarize it.
About 2:30 yesterday morning, Nathan McCrary and Brian Johnson say they left Herrera at a party. They say he had been drinking pretty heavily.
"I know he had bought a 30 pack maybe three hours earlier, but I know he didn't bring that much with him. I'm assuming he might have had eight or nine (beers)," said McCrary.
Early the next morning, the two found out Herrera had been shot and killed when he allegedly tried to break-in to a home just a few blocks away.
"We called the guy who was supposed to take him home, and he told us that Justin had been dancing with a girl who had a boyfriend," Johnson said. "Evidently, she told her boyfriend or he saw, and he and some of his friends decided to beat him up."
"I believe Justin, being hurt like he was, just ran away," said McCrary. "I think he went and tried to get help, and being Hispanic like he is, someone would see him out of their window with no shirt on, think it might be gang related."
Herrera was new to East Texas, having moved here from Ft. Worth. He was a biology major at UT Tyler, and a waiter at Papacita's restaurant. His boss, Lynn Lumley, says Herrera was one of the best employees she's ever had. "He always had a good disposition. He was always on time. He was consistently working well. He showed others how to work," said Lumley.
Herrera's past was not squeaky clean. He'd been in and out of jail in Tarrant County a number of times since 2001. His 14-page criminal background includes aggravated assault, car burglary and two D.W.I. charges.
The friends he made in Tyler say he was trying to make a fresh start. "He was an awesome guy. He wasn't doing drugs or anything. Then to hear on the news that he was trying to rob the place was a little shocking," said Johnson.
KLTV 7 News spoke with the homeowner, Robert Delk. He said he did not want to comment on the shooting. The case is under investigation. No charges have been filed.
Lindsay Wilcox, Reporting. [email protected]
Kind of speaks to the naïve 1-shot-stop
If accurate, 2 rounds of .44 magnum, some of the naïve should pay attention. Also, food for thought Re: the famous "you have to warn before shooting" mentality. Had the BG had a knife, he could just as easily have gone after the owner and killed him as to get back to the driveway. It is sad all around.
Doc2005
If accurate, 2 rounds of .44 magnum, some of the naïve should pay attention. Also, food for thought Re: the famous "you have to warn before shooting" mentality. Had the BG had a knife, he could just as easily have gone after the owner and killed him as to get back to the driveway. It is sad all around.
Doc2005
rhubarb
Member
The idea is presumably to ensure that a murder not get swept under the rug. Imagine a bigwig shoots his wife's lover out of spite and has the pull in the DA office to get off. An unscrupulous DA could say that the shooting was clearly justified since the paramour was at home and caused the bigwig to break into his house and shoot him dead.
Somewhat less likely that a murderer gets away with his crime if it is investigated by a grand jury. Also less likely that a man who rightfully defended himself will be charged by a grand jury than by an overzealous prosecutor.A homicide is not to be taken lightly.
Well, of course he was such a good guy. That is why he bashed in a door of a stranger's home in the middle of the night. If they need help, most people try knocking first.
I guess some of the previous posts were right. It certainly didn't take long for everyone to remember that he was a great guy. Oh yeah, and he was turning his life around.
Oh good grief get me my soap box, I feel a sermon coming on!:banghead:
Oh my head! I need to go take something for my blood pressure.
I guess some of the previous posts were right. It certainly didn't take long for everyone to remember that he was a great guy. Oh yeah, and he was turning his life around.
Oh good grief get me my soap box, I feel a sermon coming on!:banghead:
14 pages?! Oh yeah, what a great guy.
Oh my head! I need to go take something for my blood pressure.
On the average costs of a clean shoot, that was a combination of the criminal and civil issues. You might get off clean criminal, but have to spend some money fighting off a civil suit. It doesn't matter if the suit has no grounds, you will still need a lawyer to take the case.
If I was involved in a shoot, I think I would find a lawyer to consult with regardless of how good it was.
I thought I saw a TSRA or other statistic that said the average cost was in the $5000 to $15000 range. That was average. Some less, some more. I imagine some jurisdictions will be more difficult.
If I was involved in a shoot, I think I would find a lawyer to consult with regardless of how good it was.
I thought I saw a TSRA or other statistic that said the average cost was in the $5000 to $15000 range. That was average. Some less, some more. I imagine some jurisdictions will be more difficult.
I have been in college. Being a student doesn't mean a dang thing except that you are smarter than a rock (normally).
I am sure those students story about being beaten up can be backed up in the autopsy. However, it still doesn't excuse his actions or justify beating down someone's door. Also, the presumption in the article is that the party was nearby, but there is no mention of that.
I am sure those students story about being beaten up can be backed up in the autopsy. However, it still doesn't excuse his actions or justify beating down someone's door. Also, the presumption in the article is that the party was nearby, but there is no mention of that.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Classic, just classic given his history...
But there is an explanation...
Odd thing that there are no witness accounts to a young man screaming for help or anything like that.
Why do friends and family, especially those not present at such an event, always claim the dead bad guy is misunderstood?
TSM - what you cite is State Law in Texas. It is a homicide - regardless of the defense. Charges MUST be filed as the case MUST go before the GJ.TexasSIGman said:
The terminology used by the reporter is almost always misleading.
What the reporter means to say is that this will (probably) be a no-bill from the GJ and no indictment will be handed down.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well again IANAL but why is it unevenly applied?
In Texas it is also a crime, regardless of the defense, to be in possession of a machine gun. It is a POSITIVE DEFENSE (in court) that it's OK if it was stamped under NFA.
Why then am I not regularly prosecuted for posessing NFA weapons? It's a crime, and the statute clearly says it's a crime. The statute simply says that in court I have an affirmative defense if it's properly under NFA.
The cops and DAs don't arrest because they know there will no conviction.
So, in Texas I also have an POSITIVE DEFENSE if I shoot someone intruding into my home.
Why is one selectively applied and not another? Still doesn't make any sense. Not trying to be argumentative, but it makes no sense to me.
Texas State law says all Felony Crimes (and a few MD crimes) will go before a GJ. Period.
NFA laws do NOT apply to tax-paid weapons.
The only illegal weapons under NFA are those that do not possess the stamp.
Legal NFA weapons DO have the stamp/paperwork. Legal NFA weapons are just that - LEGAL. There is NO CRIME for a properly-papered NFA weapon.
Apples & oranges IMHO TSM...
NFA laws do NOT apply to tax-paid weapons.
The only illegal weapons under NFA are those that do not possess the stamp.
Legal NFA weapons DO have the stamp/paperwork. Legal NFA weapons are just that - LEGAL. There is NO CRIME for a properly-papered NFA weapon.
Apples & oranges IMHO TSM...
What about the poor home owner who was having great twitching dreams about seeing Pam Anderson naked and then had to wake up, crapping himself, and shoot some miscreant.
Poor guy most likely didn't get to sleep again that night or the next day and had to spring a few hundred bucks for someone to come and put up a new door up... I doubt he is going to sleep well for the next few weeks.
Further to that, why don't they just arrest his buddies the same that they would do if he had gotten behind the wheel of a car and driven through a house and killed someone.
Poor guy most likely didn't get to sleep again that night or the next day and had to spring a few hundred bucks for someone to come and put up a new door up... I doubt he is going to sleep well for the next few weeks.
Further to that, why don't they just arrest his buddies the same that they would do if he had gotten behind the wheel of a car and driven through a house and killed someone.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That is not correct. Even stamped NFA weapons are a crime, it's an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE if you have the stamp. It's a fine point in the law, but it's the same fine point you are quoting here.
Notice that it's only a defense to prosecution, NOT arrest. By statute anyone in possession of an NFA weapon, even if legal, should be arrested and charged.
It's also a felony, so your argument that ALL felonies are sent to the Grand Jury does not work.
Murder is also a felony, and it's an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE if it's self defense so it's clearly not apples and oranges, it's selective application of the law by District Attornies.
According to the statute you SHOULD be arrested and charged, THEN AND ONLY THEN do you have a defense to PROSECUTION. You must be arrested and charged to be prosecuted. But, no one arrests people with legal NFA weapons because it's a waste of time so as long as you can show the paperwork, you never get arrested.
When that happens you have a police officer skirting around the law, why don't they do the same with these self defense issues? If you are never arrested and charged, no need to go to the Grand Jury.
So again, why EXACTLY are these sent to the GJ? Everyone has a guess but the guesses are all full of holes.
Someone has to have a referencable statute if it's law, and I have yet to see anything other than "Well it's just done that way".
So again, someone that KNOWS tell me why all these kinds of things are sent to a Grand Jury?
So as it stands it STILL appears to be selective prosecution by District Attornies.
Anyone have the REAL reason for this?
Big Calhoun
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 554
TC-TX hit it.
I have found some information relative to the Grand Jury process being required per a provision in the Texas Constitution that all felonies must be presented to a grand jury. Doesn't really provide an insight as to why this is, but it's a starting point...
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/GG/jlg1.html
I'll see what else I can come up with.
EDIT: Just a heads up that I think we may be able to find our answers in the Texas Code of Criminal Procedures which is here....http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/cr.toc.htm
I'm leaving from work shortly so I'll peruse the site later tonight.
I have found some information relative to the Grand Jury process being required per a provision in the Texas Constitution that all felonies must be presented to a grand jury. Doesn't really provide an insight as to why this is, but it's a starting point...
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/GG/jlg1.html
I'll see what else I can come up with.
EDIT: Just a heads up that I think we may be able to find our answers in the Texas Code of Criminal Procedures which is here....http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/cr.toc.htm
I'm leaving from work shortly so I'll peruse the site later tonight.
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Low-Sci
Member
As to why friends and family of suspects always come out and say that the suspect was "such a good boy..."
Its called external locus of control. If something bad happens to someone, how we will view the situation relates very directly to, among other things, whether or not we like the person.
If we like the person, we're far more likely to blame the bad occurrence on things outside of the person's control, which for all intents and purposes, vindicates that person in our own minds and his (if he's still alive). This is the external locus of control.
Conversely, if we don't like the person which the bad occurrence happened to, we're much more likely to blame what happened on the person and his personality, the choices he made, things within his control that he controlled poorly or not at all. This is internal locus of control.
So its really no surprise that family and friends, who almost inevitably like the suspect, would claim that control of the situation was external to the suspect. Remember that it is done involuntarily to a large degree. Doing this vindicates the suspect in the eyes of his friends and family, who, odds are, always thought the suspect was a good person.
Its called external locus of control. If something bad happens to someone, how we will view the situation relates very directly to, among other things, whether or not we like the person.
If we like the person, we're far more likely to blame the bad occurrence on things outside of the person's control, which for all intents and purposes, vindicates that person in our own minds and his (if he's still alive). This is the external locus of control.
Conversely, if we don't like the person which the bad occurrence happened to, we're much more likely to blame what happened on the person and his personality, the choices he made, things within his control that he controlled poorly or not at all. This is internal locus of control.
So its really no surprise that family and friends, who almost inevitably like the suspect, would claim that control of the situation was external to the suspect. Remember that it is done involuntarily to a large degree. Doing this vindicates the suspect in the eyes of his friends and family, who, odds are, always thought the suspect was a good person.
Why did you leave out paragraph (b)? Are you suggesting it's also illegal for the military and LEOs to possess NFA weapons in Texas?
If you are covered by a defense to prosecution you are legal. If the sheriff wants to arrest me for possessing NFA weapons, he knows where to find me, seeing as he signed my NFA paperwork.
Lupinus
Member
I refuse to call this "tragic"
It is tragic when a occupents of a home are bound and forced to watch their wife/mother/sister/friend/etc gang raped.
It is tragic with a family is murdered in the middle of the night
It is tragic when a family looses the things that mean most to them that can never be replaced, even more so when they can't afford to at least replace the things that can be.
It is by no means tragic when a scum bag is removed from humanity, it only becomes tragic if the person that removed him is sued or put on trial.
It is tragic when a occupents of a home are bound and forced to watch their wife/mother/sister/friend/etc gang raped.
It is tragic with a family is murdered in the middle of the night
It is tragic when a family looses the things that mean most to them that can never be replaced, even more so when they can't afford to at least replace the things that can be.
It is by no means tragic when a scum bag is removed from humanity, it only becomes tragic if the person that removed him is sued or put on trial.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
B is not relevant to this discussion. This is not a thread on NFA laws, it's a thread on a self defense homocide.
The argument was made that ALL homocides were referred to Grand Juries because they are felonies, at least in Texas. This statute here says that all posessors of NFA weapons are felons, with an affirmative defense.
Both statutes appear to require law enforcement to arrest and DAs to prosecute, but both have as an affirmative defense things that law abiding citizens should not fear.
Clearly in Texas LEOs are not going around arresting lawful holders of NFA weapons, so the argument that ALL homocides are required to be sent to Grand Juries simply because they are felonies cannot be true.
If it's an affirmative defense to have the NFA stamp, and the law says it is an affirmative defense to shoot someone inside your house (intruders) in Texas, then why do the shootings go to Grand Juries and the NFA things do not?
So again I will ask the question:
Why do all of these legitimate self defense shootings end up going before a Grand Jury? It appears that it's not necessary and I'm begging someone that ACTUALLY KNOWS the law to tell me why.
It can't be simply because it's a felony, as I think I've shown here.
Shangelica
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
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Quote:
The friends he made in Tyler say he was trying to make a fresh start. "He was an awesome guy. He wasn't doing drugs or anything. Then to hear on the news that he was trying to rob the place was a little shocking," said Johnson.
Classic, just classic given his history...
Quote:
Herrera's past was not squeaky clean. He'd been in and out of jail in Tarrant County a number of times since 2001. His 14-page criminal background includes aggravated assault, car burglary and two D.W.I. charges.
But there is an explanation...
Quote:
Herrera's friends, who were with him earlier that night, spoke exclusively to KLTV 7 News. They say they think he was trying to get help at the home, not burglarize it.
Odd thing that there are no witness accounts to a young man screaming for help or anything like that.
Why do friends and family, especially those not present at such an event, always claim the dead bad guy is misunderstood?
I know a little bit more than some of you guys that like to get on here and judge the big bad Texan way.
Justin has been my good friend for the whole year that I have known him, since he's been in college. We both went to the same junior college and he was one of my best friend's suitemates so I saw him everyday.
The friends that the cops interviewed should have been real friends and kept him from drinking since the KNEW of what happens when he drinks. That one problem is the whole reason why he had those previous charges.
He is by far one of the coolest guys I've ever known. He always seemed so happy. Thankfully I never saw him when he was drunk.
He did move to east Texas to get away from all that other junk.
I don't understand about the shooting? Did he get shot more than once or twice? When it's self defense, which I believe it is, it doesn't make much sense to let out a whole clip or whatever it was.
Justin Herrera really was an awesome guy, and I'm praying that God will use his death to better this world in some way.
Thanks
The friends he made in Tyler say he was trying to make a fresh start. "He was an awesome guy. He wasn't doing drugs or anything. Then to hear on the news that he was trying to rob the place was a little shocking," said Johnson.
Classic, just classic given his history...
Quote:
Herrera's past was not squeaky clean. He'd been in and out of jail in Tarrant County a number of times since 2001. His 14-page criminal background includes aggravated assault, car burglary and two D.W.I. charges.
But there is an explanation...
Quote:
Herrera's friends, who were with him earlier that night, spoke exclusively to KLTV 7 News. They say they think he was trying to get help at the home, not burglarize it.
Odd thing that there are no witness accounts to a young man screaming for help or anything like that.
Why do friends and family, especially those not present at such an event, always claim the dead bad guy is misunderstood?
I know a little bit more than some of you guys that like to get on here and judge the big bad Texan way.
Justin has been my good friend for the whole year that I have known him, since he's been in college. We both went to the same junior college and he was one of my best friend's suitemates so I saw him everyday.
The friends that the cops interviewed should have been real friends and kept him from drinking since the KNEW of what happens when he drinks. That one problem is the whole reason why he had those previous charges.
He is by far one of the coolest guys I've ever known. He always seemed so happy. Thankfully I never saw him when he was drunk.
He did move to east Texas to get away from all that other junk.
I don't understand about the shooting? Did he get shot more than once or twice? When it's self defense, which I believe it is, it doesn't make much sense to let out a whole clip or whatever it was.
Justin Herrera really was an awesome guy, and I'm praying that God will use his death to better this world in some way.
Thanks
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