Second Amendment, Militia, (comma) vs Militia

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Oh, I know...

that it would be difficult, if not impossible as a practical matter, but there is no Constitutional reason to consider Amendments 1-10 as somehow different from the the others. A lot of people seem to think that's true, but I can't figure out any way that it is.

--Shannon
 
It is true that they are no different, but public perception of these amendments is something to be taken into account. There are no tangible reasons why they are different but there is an understood importance of them which makes them separate. It is perceived by both the populace and politicians alike.
 
Ronwill,
As for Halbrook’s interpretation, I agree with mostly but I do not think that the Second Amendment was primarily drafted for the purpose of personal protection. Instead I believe it must have been written to protect people’s right to form a militia which is to be armed; to protect themselves against the tyranny of the minority.
 
Bart said:
The Founders pretty clearly demonstrated they knew the difference between the words "arms" and "ordnance" in the Congressional reports and Continental Congress correspondence of the time. If they meant to include "ordnance" under the Second Amendment, why did they use the word "arms?"

There would be then, and to this day is, no need to list ordinance separately or specifically. Ordinance is a subset of arms. "Arms" is all encompassing.

Since Webster's was written subsequent to the Constitution, a better dictionary to use would be one that is contemporary to and written just before the Constitution: Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language was written in 1755, a mere 21 years prior to the Declaration of Independence and a mere 32 years prior to the writing of the Constitution.

Johnson's defines arms as, "weapons of offence or armour of defence". "Ordnance" is defined as "cannon; great guns". Be they little guns or great guns, the operative word is "guns", and we all know that a gun is an arm. Johnson's defines "gun" as: "The general name for firearms; the instrument from which shot is discharged by fire".

Bart said:
To put it another way, other than by inference and implication - how do you show SCOTUS that what you say is true? Because we are a LONG ways from a culture that will tolerate the private ownership of ordnance based on an implied right.

Well, for one thing, the right is not implied. It's specific. For another thing, we need not show the SCOTUS anything. I'm quite sure they know all this. The question is whether they have the honesty and candor to come out and say it.

It should also be noted that "regulate" is defined in Johnson's as:
1. To adjust by rule or method.
2. To direct.​
I see no mention of restrictions in this definition. Even today - short of the Supreme Court's unconstitutional addition of "limit" and "prohibit" to the definition of "regulate" - regulate means, "to control according to a rule; to cause to conform to a standard or needs; to adjust so as to put in good order." I would think the Founding Fathers would have included something along the lines of restrictions in the Second Amendment if they wished for there to be restrictions upon the right. They would have written it something like this:
" A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed except for prudent restrictions as Congress or the several state legislatures may determine by law."​

Always keep in mind that the Second Amendment is not about defining our Right to Keep and Bear Arms, but about the prohibition upon government to infringe upon the right what ever it encompasses. The right is absolute and inalienable. If we had no government, we would have no more or no less right to arms to survive, remain free, and protect our personal sovereignty. Just because we've agreed to form a union for our convenience does not diminish any right we have. Those in our government have it bass ackwards. WE'VE loaned THEM power to arm up in our common defense. We need not look to them for permission to arm ourselves. The Second Amendment prohibits such a function.

Woody

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole of the People, is sacredly obligatory upon all."

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796.
 
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Ordnance is a subset of arms. The previous poster made that pretty clear.

People always roll their eyes and say "Oh but everyone will be walking around with nukes and driving over your house with a tank!"

Last time I checked a MBT costs ~4 million. That's not including cost of ammo/upkeep/etc. I don't see crazy man Joe rampaging through town with a tank he bought... As for nukes, well, someone with the money and desire to own one will own one, regardless of legality... period. I wouldn't want to deal with one, even if I had the money.

I also don't see what the problem with cannons are. The smallest 'cannons' ~20mm are already pretty bulky to be used for anything but at the range. I don't see a 20-25mm rifle being used effectively to rob a store. Anything bigger gets too heavy to even carry. I have a hard time imagining someone rampaging through town with an artillery piece or some wheeled cannon.

I, for one, would not be living out my days in fear of some maniac shelling me from a distance...

Oh, and I'd totally love to get my hands on an RPG. That would be so awesome. I'm sure it would be a bit cost prohibitive to shoot though :(

---

As for SCOTUS. I think they will rule 2nd is individual (they pretty much acknowledged this in the question anyways), and dc is breaking the law, but not define any sort of standard for regulation.

If another case ever came by, I wouldn't keep my hopes up on getting the NFA struck down or something. The SCOTUS has no backbone at all and will bow down the feds on this. I have no idea why they are like this. They really have no accountability at all...
 
But Brian, isn't personal protection a secondary function of the Second?? or am i misreading you?

I think you're misreading me. That's not how I read it after studying the context,culture, and use of language of the founders. The grammar and vernacular has changed somewhat in 200 years. Back then, self defense was considered so obvious that they couldn't fathom the need to write it down.

We'll know how SCOTUS thinks on this pretty soon, though.
 
ConstitutionCowboy,
Fantastic post. i completely forgot about that argument. my mind has had a great deal of refreshing since i joined The High Road. Been a little rusty since Political Science class in college.
I completely agree with you on both the first and second sections of your post. Good point Good point.

as for Ctdonath,
thats an interesting take, I like that..
 
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Am I the only one that thinks SCOTUS knows the true meaning, but are just afraid to come out and say it, at least in regards to the militia?

I think they are politically afraid to materialize the true intentions of it, not once during the SCOTUS trial did any of the judges bring up the militia as a way of preventing goverment tyranny.
 
History is on the side of the private citizen

Originally Posted by Gunsby_Blazen
As for Halbrook’s interpretation, I agree with mostly but I do not think that the Second Amendment was primarily drafted for the purpose of personal protection. Instead I believe it must have been written to protect people’s right to form a militia which is to be armed; to protect themselves against the tyranny of the minority.

This is the starting point that the anti-gun org's start out with, to use the initial "A well regulated Militia," to start the call for excessive regulations. :banghead: :cuss:

To look at history of the writing, like many others here have already stated, our Founding Fathers were not to concerned with the punctuation, additions of ands ifs buts neither nors, and the like. (Sometimes I think that to much education gets in the way) The concern of their's was in meaning. These days to many people get caught up in the wording and punctuation. The 2A means the same if you use the comma's, take one or both of them out, or serperate it into two sentances.

Now if you look at the time frame and the physical make-up of the USA wehn the Constitution was written, the call-up of a citizen militia by the state/federal gov'ts made perfect sense. These bodies did not have the money to fund a large standing army, and the use of a militia was as a "back-up" to the federal army. Hence the need to keep (and be knowledgable) in firearms. Now we have the National Guard (which is controlled by the State, not the Federal, Government) and realistically there is no need for a militia as needed in the 18th and early 19th centuries. Thus it would mean that if anyone/group wanted to argue for a removal/restriction of the 2A it should be on the "militia" phrase. :scrutiny:
Also at that time there was no sheriffs department that could quickly respond to calls from the local citizeny. Yes I know there were police, sheriffs, marshalls, etc., but one with maybe a deputy or two to cover large amounts of land. So due to this, it was written to cover self/property protection, as well as for survival in the "wilderness."

As for that being said, SCOTUS could easily rule that a ban is unconstitutional but reasonable restrictions and regulations are proper. This would be a version of a (proper in my view) narrow interpretion.
 
You misunderstand me, i believe the national guard is unconstitutional. we have the right to form militias to look out for our own interests.
To deny us weapons and to deny us the right to assembly with those weapons is something that is unconstitutional. The argument that militias are no longer needed NOT VALID.
 
By the way VPLthrneck, I undesigned what your saying and the fallacy of my argument in giving ammunition to the enemy. (I was doing some thinking) Using my argument in defense of the second amendment to someone who is "progressive" would not be a good idea.
My overall point is that we have the militia in order to have a tangible threat to the government to ensure our freedoms, all of them. We have the militia to dissolve the government if it encroaches too much power. I am not speaking of arguing to the courts for rights. This is beyond that...
In my opinion, that is why we have arms.
Or have I gone off the deep end?
 
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It's in the meaning not the wording

I've been noticing that anywhere certain words are used in the Constitution, capital letters are prevalent to the usage/meaning of a word. (gotta love the free Constitution pamphlet from the Heritage Foundation) Then when you read newer Amendments, you can see the change in wording.
such as Militia:
US Constitution, Art. 2, Sect 2: the President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into actual Service of the United States;
Art 1, Sec 8: The Congress shall have Power:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union,
Insurrections and repel Invasions.
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States,......
The use of the terminology "militia" had a different meaning than what we use it for now. Now if you want to form a militia, go right ahead no one will stop you; unless you try to overthrow a/some gov't then the Militia will be called to stop you. :evil:
In 1903 the term "militia" was replaced with "national guard" in US codes and in legislation expanding the role of the guard/militia as a Reserve force of the active military.
So how does this make the National Guard unconstitutional?:confused:

It all falls into the meaning NOT the wording. Just as the term "arms" can be argued.

As for use of commas, what's the diff between
Arms, shall
and
Arms shall
I see the use of the comma here as the Founders wanting to make sure the phrase "shall not be infringed" would not be overlooked.
 
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We have the militia to dissolve the government if it encroaches too much power. I am not speaking of arguing to the courts for rights. This is beyond that...

My oldest sister said something similar a few years back. My response to her is the same then as now: Have faith in your fellow American.
It will never go that far, Heller vs. DC is a prime example of the power of an American. Some one on here has a sig lin that says (para-phrasing here) "take 3 minutes: write, call, email your Congressman" This is the power that we hold in our hands that is protected by the Constitution; make your voice heard whether it be at the local, state, or federal level.

If Congress tries to push for tougher gun laws after the Heller decision is haded down, flood the phone lines. This action stopped the pro-ammensty for illegals bill from passing.
Also remember that we in the military are NOT required to follow any "illegal" order/s and that we love this country and what it stands for as much as the average joe in the heartland does. We don't blindly follow along goosestepping everywhere.:fire:
 
Reply to VPLthrneck
First of all, the National Guard is an encroachment of federal power. Thank my favorite president, Lincoln, for that. That being said, it is how things function now and honestly I have nothing against it. I have been playing devils advocate just so you know. Things have changed a great deal since the formation of this country. We are no longer These United States but rather The United States. Federalism is extremely strong but I am still an advocate for states rights (don’t take me as a confederate because I have a lot of opinions on that…). Sorry if I stepped on your toes if I did, nothing against the National Guard.
On your second post, I cant help but say that if you were ordered (which I know will never happen) to removed firearms from the populace, that it would not be an illegal order as it would be either ordered by law or executive order (presidential or from the governor). Anyway, I highly see that as more than extremely unlikely.

I am not for premature actions that I may be preceded as describing. Far from it…
I have a degree in political science and an extreme patriot. I have faith in our bureaucracy, legislature, and judicial process. I also believe it’s the citizenry duty to keep their government in check by BECOMING ACTIVE IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS AND VOICING YOUR OPINION. Using firearms as a political message is far from what I am trying to convey. By my recent posts on this tread I am not trying to spark revolution, but rather debate the true meaning of what the second amendment was drafted. I could be wrong… but I think it was made to protect our freedom; foreign, domestic, and our liberty. It was never intended to be used to protect our liberty, but the right is protected ensure security of our liberties.
I see it as checks and balances…

Again, sorry if I stepped on your toes.
 
Woody, your second paragraph is essentially the reasonable restrictions argument.

As for your first, you are going to need more than a single dictionary from 32 years prior to sell the idea that ordnance is included, even if you are personally quite sure of the fact.

Your answer to "Why did they list it separately if there is no difference between ordnance and arms?" was "There is no need to list the two separately."

You essentially sidestepped my question and gave me a dictionary response.

Second question for you, the Second mentions "keep and bear" (note that these two little words were given a bunch of scrutiny on what they mean in the recent Heller debate - keep that in mind when you think about this next question), how do you "bear" a cannon or M1 Tank? According to the common definitions at the time (from the dictionaries you just gave me), "to bear" is synonymous with "to carry."

Can you point me towards a late 1700s-early 1800s example of where a person was said to have borne a cannon?

All of that is just a fancy way of saying what you already know - the number of people who favor your interpretation are the tiniest of minorities. In the past, the Court has been willing to ignore MUCH plainer language in order to avoid unpopular results (Miller, Dred Scott, segregation, etc.). The current Court has plenty of perfectly logical hooks to hang a hat on to avoid the unpopular result of ordnance of being a subset of arms.
 
I'm not sure capitalization matters much.

The late 18th Century seems to be in the middle of a transition period in written English, from "all nouns are capitalized" to "only proper nouns are capitalized."

Anybody with some linguistic history knowledge who can chime in on this?

--Shannon
 
because of the presence of the word "state", and with the intention as to why the states drafted the bill of rights in the first place, it should be obvious that the People have the right to bear arms. At the worst, guns are a state-level issue IMO. I don't see why or how the fed has the ability to chime in on it other than the fact that we let them do so.
 
Bartholomew...

...If they meant for government to be able to control and restrict ANY privately owned weapons, why was the government not specifically granted that power?

The 2nd Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, grants nothing. It clarifies and further restricts government ONLY. That which government is not specifically given the authority to do, it may not do.
 
The 2nd Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, grants nothing. It clarifies and further restricts government ONLY.

All I said was that I think a good case can be made that ordnance is not protected under the Second. If you would like to argue that the lack of specific mention elsewhere means that the Federal government has no power to regulate the possession or ownership of ordnance, feel free; but I think that argument will have even less success.

That which government is not specifically given the authority to do, it may not do.

It depends on what you mean by "specifically given authority." The Constitution grants very broad and poorly defined powers to the Federal government (for example: "To provide and maintain a Navy") So even though there is no specific grant of power for the Feds to purchase aircraft for naval aviation (a concept that did not even exist at the time), the Feds have that power under the Constitution.

The Founders had two reasons for doing this.

1. Limiting the federal government only to powers expressly, specifically granted powers had paralyzed the government under the Articles of Confederation. This had happened to such an extent that even the anti-federalists acknowledged this was no longer a good idea.

2. The Founders needed all 13 states to ratify and the more specific you get about details, the more likely you are to alienate a political bloc you may need. As a result, many of the elements of the Constitution were left deliberately vague.

As a final point to illustrate why I am skeptical, I would quote the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

If we can establish that the federal government has no power to regulate ordnance because it has not been specifically delegated, what do you think the likely argument will be reading the Tenth Amendment?

Just off the top of my head, it seems the obvious argument is that the powers of regulating ordnance are reserved to the States and not the people. I'd also bet that you will have a difficult time finding historical examples suggesting otherwise; because while cannons and similar things may have been privately owned, that does not indicate they were unregulated by the colonies/states (automobiles being a prime example of something privately owned and yet completely under state power of regulation). You would need to find clear intent that the people were meant to have that right separate from the states to succeed with your argument - and if you can find that in the historical record, you really should have done a brief for Heller; because that would have been a nice tidbit to throw in.
 
How many licenses for high-power explosives dealing would be granted to civilian market companies so that they could sell someone a sidewinder? Or rather, how many have? How the hell does that even work? :uhoh:
 
Bart said:
If we can establish that the federal government has no power to regulate ordnance because it has not been specifically delegated, what do you think the likely argument will be reading the Tenth Amendment?

The Union may regulate ordnance all it wants so long as it doesn't infringe upon our right to keep and bear it. Congress has power to raise and support armies, and to provide and maintain a navy(Article I, Section 8, Clauses 12 and 13), and to provide for organizing and arming the militia(Article I, Section 8, Clause 16). Supporting an army and to provide and maintain a navy would by the very necessity of what an army is and does - same for a navy - arms would be included. Without arms, you do not have an army or navy.

More tomorrow.

Woody
 
its a moot point. As far as i remember from Grammar and literature classes, when you enclose a phrase within two sets of commas it denotes an additional bit of information. This additional information clarifies the point of the statement, but is not needed for the statement to make sence. (at least when properly written).

Maybe the usage was different back then, but by modern grammatical standards the sentence is incorrect either way you slice it. The information enclosed is NOT additional, because the sentence makes no sense without it.

Therefore, it should have only one comma.

Grammatically, the only way it makes sense to me is:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

looks like it only needs one comma.
 
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