Is the second amendment about the states being able to arm the militia?

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eihtball

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I was just reading a post from this board-
Gun Control and Freedom Debate Board

In the post somebody quotes from Patrick Henry who says that the states should have the right to arm the militia as well as the Federal Government. Is this the origin of the collective interpretation? Did some people read that quote and think that the second amendment was written to satisfy people like Henry? The second amendment does use the words "state" and "militia" and "arms".
 
If you believe that collective rights nonsense then this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

obviously means the right of the people to peaceably assemble means only in formation in the military, or at a Pro-Bush rally. After all 'the people' in the 1st amendment is the same 'the people' in the 2nd.

So by collective rights logic what Martin Luther King did was not protected by the 1st Amendment. Neither was the Million Man March or what Commie Mommy Sheehan is doing. So off to Gitmo with them.

See both sides can play the collective-rights game, if you want to keep the parts of the Bill of Rights that you hold dear then you had better fight to keep the whole thing. Or else the very tactics you use to trash the 2nd Amendment will be used to remove the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th and all the rest. When the other amendments are gone and police start arresting your family and sending them to camps, and mobs armed with machetes and axes start dismembering you, guess which one you will wish you didn't dismantle?

(hint: it won't be the one about publishing newspaper articles) :scrutiny:
 
No, the 2nd Amendment is NOT about the states arming the militia. The old guys who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights could read and write English. Where they meant the Federal government, they said "the Government" (or "the Congress"). Where they meant the states, they said "the states." Where they meant the populace, they said "the People." They did not interchange the terms randomly.

Nowhere in the 2nd Amendment is there any mention of the militia being provided arms by the states. The 2nd Amendment specifically states that the right of "the People" to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I cannot even begin how anyone can twist that around to claiming it says the states shall arm the militia(s).
 
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

If the founders had wanted to preserve the right of a STATE, they would have said:

the right of the several states to arm and maintain militias, shall not be infringed

In EVERY OTHER CASE, where the founders chose to use the term "the people," they were creating an individual right not a right for the states.
 
I can't believe it--

five of the more erudite members of this forum, and you step up to the slow pitch....
 
The second amendment does use the words "state" and "militia" and "arms".
It also uses the words "The People"
The same people as in "We the People", and in the first, fourth , ninth and most notably the tenth where the government , states, and people are specifically held as separate entities.

So unless these articles written by the same person all pertain to the rights of the government then they must all be individual rights safe guarded for we the people
 
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1. They spoke differently in that time. Back then, "well regulated" meant well prepared, well maintained, etc. Today, it means lots and lots of laws.

2. Militia - the militia is made up of individual citizens bearing their own personal weapons.

3. Necessary to the security of a free state - security from foreign enemies, security from your own government, etc.

The 2nd Amendment protects your individual right to own weapons, so that you can form militias with other people also bearing their own individual weapons, in order to protect yourself and your community from foreign enemies or government officials who have stepped over their bounds.

I really don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
 
The majority of the Bill of Rights was meant to directly address acts committed by the King of England against the colonies.

George III created laws respecting the establishment of religion and prohibited the exercise of other religions. He created laws that limited speech, the press, and free assembly. Hence, the First Amendment.

He also quartered soldiers in colonists’ homes. Hence, the Third Amendment.

He also searched homes without warrants. Hence, the Fourth Amendment.

He also created laws and committed acts that resulted in the creation of the Fifth, Sixth, and Eight amendments.

As for the Second Amendment, it was the King’s attempt to disarm the colonies, by emptying the armories of weapons, that acted as the catalyst for the creation of this amendment. As far as history is concerned, the purpose of the Second Amendment is to prevent the federal government from disarming the states.

What has been in question is how, exactly does a state exercise its right to keep and bear arms? This was clarified in the Supreme Court’s Miller decision of 1939.

The Court declared that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to insure the effectiveness of the Militia.

The Court declared that “the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.”

The Court further declared “that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.”

In short, the Court ruled that the Second Amendment is all about preserving the militia and a state’s ability to defend itself. Further, the court’s method established that the only type of weapons that could be kept under the protection of the Second Amendment were weapons defined by law and for that purpose.

I feel that the Miller ruling is 100% correct. However, the mistake that the majority of people make is in thinking that since Miller is correct, we don’t have a personal right to possess firearms for personal protection. That view is completely wrong. We DO have such a right, completely separate from the Second Amendment, but that right has not be established in the legal literature as of yet. There is a bill in Congress that would do just that, but it hasn’t move out of committee yet.
 
Yeah and what about the right of 'the people' to be secure in their papers and effects? Surely that doesn't only apply to some collective group of special people now does it?
 
...
The following is reprinted from the September 13, 1991 issue of
GUN WEEK:
THE UNABRIDGED SECOND AMENDMENT
by J. Neil Schulman
If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwartzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of theSecond Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked Mr. A.C. Brocki, Editorial Coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style: The Consensus. A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a distinguished seventeen-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publishers' Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did \not\ give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:



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"July 26, 1991
"Dear Professor Copperud:

"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the text of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance.

"Sincerely,

"J. Neil Schulman"



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After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the following analysis (into which I've inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

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[Copperud:] The words "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitute a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying "militia," which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject "the right," verb "shall"). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as essential for maintaining a militia.
In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman: (1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to "a well-regulated militia"?;]

[Copperud:] (1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people.

[Schulman: (2) Is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right "shall not be infringed"?;] [Copperud:] (2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

[Schulman: (3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well-regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?;]

[Copperud:] (3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

[Schulman: (4) Does the clause "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," grant a right to the government to place conditions on the "right of the people to keep and bear arms," or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?;]

[Copperud:] (4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia.

[Schulman: (5) Which of the following does the phrase "well-regulated militia" mean: "well-equipped," "well-organized," "well-drilled," "well-educated," or "subject to regulations of a superior authority"?]

[Copperud:] (5) The phrase means "subject to regulations of a superior authority"; this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.

[Schulman: If at all possible, I would ask you to take into account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written two-hundred years ago, but not to take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated.]

[Copperud:] To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged."

[Schulman: As a "scientific control" on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,


Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence, and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and
Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict "the right of the people to keep and read Books" only to "a well-educated electorate" -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?]
[Copperud:]
Your "scientific control" sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.
There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation.

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Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."
So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all government formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.

As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.

And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely. American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms -- all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the Constitution.

And even the ACLU, staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

It seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. No one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says but means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak?

Or will we simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor?



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Copyright (c) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited.
All others rights reserved.
 
[Copperud:] (5) The phrase means "subject to regulations of a superior authority"; this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.
I respectfully disagree with Mr. Copperud on this point. He is clearly confused, because there was no "military" to be subjected to "civilian" control. The militia were civilians -- civilians with rifles. The Founding Fathers (as we know) did not cherish standing armies.
 
states should have the right to arm the militia
Be aware that "militia" legally means "all able-bodied males aged 17-45". Hence, he was arguing that the states should have a right to arm the people of the state - people who were already acknowledge to have the right to arm themselves without that right being infringed by the state.

So I would agree: the state of Georgia has the right to buy me a new M-16.
Failing that, the 2nd Amendment also recognizes my right to buy a new M-16 myself (a point the BATFE seems a bit confused about).
 
That analysis is quite useless. It’s like asking some to analyze this sentence from Section 9 of the Constitution...

“The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases or Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”

You can argue back and forth as to exactly when the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus can be suspended, what kind of conditions, etc. etc., but that doesn’t tell you exactly what a Writ of Habeas Corpus is.

In the same way, an analysis of the Second Amendment can’t possibly answer the question of what really is the true nature of the Right To Keep And Bear Arms.

If I invite you to go paint the town red, are you going to show up with a can of red paint? I don’t think so. But an analysis of the text would suggest that you should.

Usage is very tricky. For example, take a person that calls himself a painter. From that description can you tell if he paints houses or paints portraits? No, you can’t tell. You need more information. In fact, that short statement is a perfect example..."No, you can't tell." Do I mean that you can't say something? Or do I mean that you can't differentiate between two options? You need context.

In the Anti-Federalist papers we find...

“In the bills of rights of the States it is declared, that a well regulated militia is the proper and natural defense of a free government; that as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous, they are not to be kept up, and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and controlled by, the civil power.

The same security is as necessary in this Constitution, and much more so; for the general government will have the sole power to raise and to pay armies, and are under no control in the exercise of it; yet nothing of this is to be found in this new system.”

And that brings us to the Second Amendment...
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

From a review of all the debates of the Second Amendment it is crystal clear that this amendment was all about protecting a military ability of the states. Early drafts even called for conscientious objectors to find a replacement, but that language was dropped, I suspect, when it was realized that no suitable replacement would be available that didn’t have his own obligation to fight.

So to answer the question...
“But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?”

I would say forget the expert on usage...give me a lawyer who is an expert on the history of the US Constitution.
 
Well shoot, I suppose the 2nd ammendment does not PRECLUDE the 50 states from arming a militia :)

But I think the idea was to secure the personal security of every Person in the US, by giving each of them a rifle/tank/fighter-jet if they can afford one. It is about protecting the insurgent/military ability of Each and Every One of Us(TM)(R).
 
"That depends on how you define the word 'is'."

How many definitions of "is" are there? The "people" could hardly mean the state. It seems clear to me, it means the individual.

Doc2005
 
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