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Seeking Custom Gunsmith

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by C11H26NO2PS, Nov 27, 2012.

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  1. Flyincedar

    Flyincedar Member

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    And the $50 an hour is a low estimate even. Someone that knows what they are doing will easily cost more than that. Even personally being interested in the project, there is no way that I would do it for $50 an hour.

    45_auto, the scenario you mentioned perfectly describes why we require a non refundable deposit. No way I'm refunding a penny for work completed, because someone changed their mind. I have before, never again. I can't imagine anyone actually doing that, and can't believe that I ever did.
     
  2. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    @dirtyjim: Here are more requested details.
    Chambered in .454 Casull
    10" Barrell Longslide Magazine-fed Semi-Auto
    Patterned after Colt 1903 & 1911
    Browning Short-Recoil Action (Gas Actuation, like a Wildey or Desert Eagle will not suffice)
    Care will need to be taken in regards to the timing, as a 1911 would be out of battery before the round exits a 10" barrel...
    Since it's a non-standard round for an Auto, everything will need to be scaled-up proportionately to house a round that is factory hot.
    The barrel will need to be very thick to withstand the 59,000+ psi ​
    Additionally, I am 23 years old. I just finished a four-year term in the Army, including a year-long tour in Afghanistan.

    @45_auto: The "24 Months" scenario I wrote previously is assuming that the down payment was made solely to 'reserve my place in line,' and that no progress had been made. If $2500 exhausts 6 days of CAD, and more funds are required for further work, then by all means I'll send more money.
    On the other hand, it's a certainty that my money was for naught if I'm made to wait 24 months and one magical July morning, "Uh, Mr. So-and-So, I'm about to start drawing up that, uh, what did you want again?"
    As for your recommendation of business electives, I select classes Tuesday.

    @Flyincedar: Completed work is completed work; No refunds. 24 months, nothing happened; next gunsmith, please.

    -Teddy
     
  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Jumping Off Point

    FYI the LAR Grizzly was made in calibers up through .45 Win Mag and .44 Magnum.
    There was a 10" barrel version but the barrel protruded 1" - 1.5" so the slide would cover an 8.5" - 9" or thereabouts.
    See at
    http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/usa/lar-grizzly-e.html

    So what you are talking about is a 15-20% scaleup of an existing firearm that was itself a scaleup of the standard 1911.

    I don't see any mechanical reason not to build it.
    The regular 6.5" Grizzly only weighs 48 oz, so your big brother ought to come in not much over 4 lbs.
    The big hangup will be grip size. The Grizzly has a very broad grip to hold 7x.45WM. Enlarging it to hold .454 Casul with the stagger needed to get rimmed cartridges in a box magazine will make it huge.
     
  4. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    I had forgotten the LAR Grizzly. When it was mentioned to me as a candidate for the parent-gun, my favorite near-by gun store had one in stock but it's long since been purchased. That would be the closest thing to what I seek, and only a few components would need to be remade big enough to contain .454.

    Yeah, I guess a 115-120% 1911 would be about the same frame size.
    Just elongate the frame, slide and barrel out to ten inches.
    4 Pounds seems light for a handgun that large... My Mark 23 with it's full kit weighs easily 5 pounds, and that's on a polymer frame. I was anticipating between 7 to 10 pounds, which would be preferable to tame the .454. I mean, It's certainly not going to be my quickdraw handgun, right?

    You mentioned that the Rimmed casing will need to be staggered. The gunsmiths that I have spoken to thus far all told me the same thing that it wouldn't be worth their time to do all the effort for a Rimmed cartridge, and that the magazines would need to be specially designed to accommodate it. Could you expound upon that a little more, please? Would it work as a single-stack magazine? How did Coonan make the .357 semi-automatic feed properly?
    I'm expecting nothing more than a 6 + 1 capacity.
     
  5. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    When I say staggered, I do not mean double column like a Browning or a Mauser.

    The internal cross section of the magazine is tapered, either made that way or with ribs impressed near the front. That lets the bullet and case neck stack vertically and the rimmed caseheads set out with just enough stagger to stay vertical.
    Look at the Desert Eagle magazine
    http://www.magnumresearch.com/Desert-Eagle-Magazines/Desert-Eagle-Magazines.asp
    and see how the ribs narrow it at the front but let the rims splay out at the rear.

    Or you could go with a plain single column like a S&W M52 but would be limited to 5 shots before the nose down position of the top round limited feeding.


    Maybe I was conservative on the weight. But there are aluminum and titanium to work with.
     
  6. dirtyjim

    dirtyjim Member

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    there are a ton of grizzly 45's on gunbroker and it should be possible to use one as a base. on the grip you'll need to come up with around .200" more room lengthwise & around .040" more width at the rear for the rim for the magazine. you might also be able to lengthen the standard desert eagle magazine by .200" and rebuild the grip around that.

    since your in texas you might try buying a grizzly, a desert eagly 44 magazine, a box of 454casull and filling a wheelbarrow full of money.
    place the grizzly, the ammo and the magazine on top of the wheelbarrow full of money and push it inside briley pistol in houston and say combine these.

    who knows, you may end up with something like this
    Hellsing_ARM__454_Casull_Auto_by_Rethana.jpg
     
  7. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    @Jim Watson: Thank you for the clarification. I have a thing for titanium, so I'd gladly be on board with that. Also, Desert Eagle magazines are only $47!? HK factory Mark 23 magazines are $70.

    @dirtyjim: Your unnecessary sarcasm aside, that's exactly what I'm seeking. Thank you for the input on what areas of the parent gun will require modification. And I prefer this image for the multiple angles: Casull_Profile.jpg
    Your snide remark about the wheelbarrow full o' money may be what is necessary to get a gunsmith to take this project seriously. I made this thread to find out how it CAN be done.
     
  8. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The prototype might take two Grizzlys.

    Cut the frames vertically but unequally through the butt.
    Weld the long sections together to form a magazine well long enough for .454.
    It worked for John Martz making up .45 ACP Lugers.

    Cut the front end off of one slide and weld it to the other to accomodate a 10" barrel.
    That worked for Jim Clark making up Longslide target pistols.

    Fabricate a barrel, magazine, and trigger.
    Open up the breechface for the larger .454 rim, and if necessary, modify for longer slide travel to pick up the longer round out of the magazine.

    After that, it is timing of the action, setting of spring strengths and general tinkering to get it to shoot.

    Then get out the BIG checkbook to have a nice one made up from scratch with the cosmetics you want.
     
  9. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Seems to me what you want is a .50 AE Desert Eagle.

    It is a gas operated rotary bolt design much better suited to handling the recoil and pressures you are talking about.

    They already make it in a few rimmed Magnum revolver calibers.

    But I don't know of any company ever making a browning long-recoil design strong enough to handle a .454 Casull's 65,000 PSI pressure. Or even tried too.

    I personally think you are barking up a pretty tall tree, no matter how much money you have to spend.

    rc
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  10. dirtyjim

    dirtyjim Member

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    at briley the wheelbarrew full of money is just to get them to unlock the door.
    i'm not even sure if they still take on that kind of work, but about 20 years ago they had a guy there from south africa that was more than capable of building exactly what your asking for. he actualy started their pistol division and may be retired now, i can't even remember his name anymore.
     
  11. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    But he said he did not want gas operation.
    John Browning knew best.

    That was Claudio Salassa.
    I would send it to Jim Boland... if he were still alive.
     
  12. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Regardless of what he said.

    He is going to have to use it to handle .454 pressure.

    rc
     
  13. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    It's unfortunate that many of the great gunsmiths of the golden age of handmade firearms are dying off without an apprentice or heir. It's a diminishing trade.

    I'm certain that I'm not looking for a Desert Eagle for this project, unless it's to adapt the ribbed magazines. Jim Watson's example of the Two-Grizzly Prototype is actually something to look into, especially in that the endeavor has worked for other projects. And I will keep in mind Briley & Claudio Salassa.

    If it's properly reinforced, and granted that will take considerable effort, then it will handle .454's chamber pressures.

    -Teddy
     
  14. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    Quick Update to those that are following this thread:

    I've gotten a few interested inquiries, waiting on a final verdict before anything can start moving forward.
     
  15. BBBBill

    BBBBill Member

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    I seriously doubt that a Grizzly slide could be used for prototyping. The 454 is .020"/5mm longer than a 45 WinMag. Don't think it would clear the ejection port. If so, the ejection port would need to be opened up further forward. To allow room for that, the locking lugs would have to be machined further forward in the slide/on the barrel and I would add at least one more lug. Possibly go to a square profile ala SIG/Glock, though that would be dictated by the dimensions of the pressure vessel required to contain it. Fitting would definitely have to be on the scale of a bullseye gun to get all lugs engaging/working. The usual loose fit of some lugs that works on my beloved 1911 would never let a 454 chambered gun survive.
     
  16. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Is the idea to use a link? That was not one of JMB's better ideas and was a carryover from the double link pistols. Using a system like the BHP or better yet like the CZ 75 will allow a significant increase in dwell time without increasing frame length that much.

    That should allow more flexibility in dealing with high pressure before bullet exit.

    Jim
     
  17. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    @BBBBill: Yeah, heavy modifications would need to be made all around to facilitate a Casull. It's a pretty square profile to begin with, based off the pictures. And yes, I'd expect match-grade accuracy for the kind of money I'll have to put into this.

    @Jim K: What do you mean a 'Link?' I'm not familiar with that term either. I love my CZ 75 to death, but I don't want a second handgun that looks just like it (Unless it's a Short-Rail... but that's not the point). I'm least concerned with increasing frame length; I expect this beast to rock a 10" barrel on a 39 cm frame.

    As always, your feedback is much appreciated.
    -Teddy
     
  18. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    You're designing a semi-automatic pistol and you're not familiar with how a 1911 works? Kind of like starting out with square wheels on your car. Research is your friend.

    The link Jim K was referring to is the link on a 1911 that connects the barrel to the frame. It allows the rear of the barrel to pivot downwards and disengages the recoil lugs from the slide after the slide/barrel has traveled rearward a specific distance, at which time the bullet has exited the barrel and chamber pressures have dropped to a safe level.

    The link was eliminated in later pistol designs.

    You can see the link just below the chamber and how it works in this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NRyP7uFI0
     
  19. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    The link system was fine with the .45 ACP (and earlier with the .38 ACP) but it does not allow much adjustment to the timing. The link has to be a certain length (OK, you can fudge a bit) and that pretty well precludes any adjustment to the dwell time. But with a cartridge like the .454, it seems to me you want an extended locked time to allow the residual pressure to drop. Even if you can keep the breech closed until the bullet leaves the barrel, the residual pressure of that round might be enough to blow/bulge cases if the breech is allowed to open too soon.

    Many folks consider John Browning a genius at gun design, and he was. But he was not an engineer and had no help from a CAD program. He was an empirical designer of the old school, working out ideas on paper then going to metal, with maybe a wooden model for proof of concept along the way. Today's engineers and designers have advantages JMB never had; much of the work can be done on a computer, not on a milling machine or lathe, and dirt under the finger nails and spirals of steel in the shoe soles are no longer signs of a designer at work. (Joke: How do you know a man is a machinist in the winter time? He is the one who doesn't slip on the ice.)

    Jim
     
  20. lathedog

    lathedog Member

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    I see you are getting plenty of advice.

    Be sure to post pics and a range report when this new pistol is complete.
     
  21. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    @45_auto: Ok, so I'm not a wizard with technical names of components. I'm also not a 1911 owner or shooter. I could probably name 80% of the components in an M16A2, but I'm not trying to design a gas impingement, rotating-bolt system. Thank you for the video, it was helpful in completing the explanation. I made this thread to learn, get advice, and recommendations for the project. I am accomplishing all three of those tasks.

    @Jim K: Thank you for the added detail about the link system. I'm aware that timing is going to be the biggest (well, there'll be a lot of big) functional obstacle in making this work. Today's engineers and designers also design things like... Jiminez & Raven Arms... so, just because they have CAD doesn't mean they're taking advantage of it. Heh.

    @lathedog: Once design and production start (I still don't have a start date), I will post updates, and the occasional bump, as I receive them. Range Performance and Gallery will also be posted. When available. I fear that might not be for years though, as per estimates earlier posters gave on wait-times.

    On an unrelated subject: What are you guys thinking about the scarcity of AR15's? Not to mention the price gouging.

    Regards,
    -Teddy
     
  22. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    If you can design, produce, and market a better gun at the same price point as a Jiminez or Raven, you'll easily make enough to fund your project within the first few weeks of sales.
     
  23. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    Touché!

    Moreover, I got something in mind I call the 'Petite,' but I'd be marketing to female shooters. :-/
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  24. C11H26NO2PS

    C11H26NO2PS Member

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    Merry Christmas

    To everyone keeping up with this thread: Merry Christmas to you & your's!

    -Teddy
     
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