Seismic Ammo’s Extremely Heavy Projectiles in 9mm, .45 ACP, and 12 Gauge

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They may be using a proprietary blend, but what makes you think they'd need something radically different than a slow pistol powder? As you increase projectile weight, the speed of the powder generally goes down (the projectile's inertia helps create the conditions for more complete burn of a slower powder). My guess is that something in the burn rate of AA#9 would work fine, and probably give a 100% fill.
That'd be a fun experiment, figuring out if you could cram enough AA#9 in a 9mm case to do it. I suppose that long bullets going to have a lot or baring surface too to slow down bullet movement.
 
I can see these being pretty darn “straight and true” penetrators, sort of like mini dangerous game loads that are used on the African biggies.

I also see these as a short (meaning defense) distance round since their constant “mass” is being acted upon by the universal constant “gravity” as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel. I’m seeing wiffle-ball trajectories out of standard handguns.

Cool idea tho!

Stay safe.
 
Yeah, you're not going to feel the burn rate itself.
But you can definitely feel the difference between a 115gr load and a 147gr load if you pay attention.
The actual recoil force will be the same or higher with a heavy bullet--all other things being equal--but it's pretty common that it comes slower, making it feel softer. Whether or not that has any actual effect depends on, well, everything involved between muzzle and user, but it's at the very least a perception thing.
In this case it's probably just that a standard quick-burning pistol powder would build some serious pressure getting those rounds to usable speeds.
Of course there's a limit to the difference in an autoloader because it does still need force within certain parameters to actually function. There's virtually no limit to how different you can load for a revolver, as long as you're making sure the bullet actually exits the barrel. I'm sure they'd have a field day loading for .357 or .44.
 
They may be using a proprietary blend, but what makes you think they'd need something radically different than a slow pistol powder? As you increase projectile weight, the speed of the powder generally goes down (the projectile's inertia helps create the conditions for more complete burn of a slower powder). My guess is that something in the burn rate of AA#9 would work fine, and probably give a 100% fill.

I got the impression from the article, that they had spent a fair amount of time and research to get the right powder for such a heavy bullet in a small case. Seems like they may have made the opposite of Trailboss (being a fast burning but unusually low bulk density powder). Slower burning powders tend to have a lower bulky density taking up more of case volume for a given amount of energy. So it seems like they may have come up with a denser than normal slow burning powder. This could be useful for any number of subsonic cartridges allowing even heavier bullets to be used in limited case volumes.
 
I think there are several reasons to doubt that it is physically possible for people to feel the speed of powder as directly driving some "recoil impulse," particularly in handguns. Before I get started, I should emphasize that I am NOT saying that different powders don't produce different levels of recoil (both real and perceived). They do. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that I do not believe that humans - any human - directly perceives the speed of powder in a way that would lead them to experience slower powders as being gentler and faster powders as harsher. I contend that cannot happen.

Reason one: Human perceptional time is not infinitely fast. It takes time for our brains to collect sensory data and perceive it. When sensory inputs are briefer than the "refresh rate" of our perceptual machinery, we often end up with a summed-over-time perception. We're all familiar with this in the context of sight, where still images flashed in chunks of ~40 milliseconds get blended together into moving images - TV and movies rely on this. This same phenomenon occurs with other sensory inputs, and touch is included. The difference in where a pressure peak occurs between, say, fast and slow pistol powders, or how spread out it is - that's a difference of far less than a single millisecond. The whole "dwell time" in the barrel isn't long enough for us to "feel" the recoil in real time - the bullet is gone before we even perceive the recoil.

Just look at this chart, showing a load of HS6 (a fairly slow pistol powder) and Win 231 (a faster powder):

Figure-5-compensators-Pressure-or-Gas.jpg

Bearing in mind that the whole window of perception for humans is longer that this entire graph, I find it beyond implausible that someone could feel the difference in the spike-versus-tail shape of these two curves. No chance. Now, I do think people might be able to perceive the difference between the total area under the curves, or even the pressure-at-exit... but the shape of the curve? No chance.

Reason two: Even if you had a mutant human with some kind of superhuman touch-perceptional time frame/refresh rate, the design of a modern browning-type semi-auto handgun simply does not transmit recoil information to the shooter in real time. Look at this video (fast-forward to the 0:10 mark).



Notice that the bullet is gone before the slide has moved a quarter inch. Even when the slide is moving during recoil, it's only transmitting force to the user through the spring... the spring is compressing, and buffering that force until the slide hits home at the end of travel. The powder has long since either burned or left the barrel by the time the frame begins any kind of significant movement in/against the shooter's hand. Here's another video (of a shooter with a pretty floppy one-handed grip):



Again: The powder is burned and the bullet is gone before the shooter starts to experience any serious level of recoil. It's somewhat similar to a car traveling down the highway that hits a moderate bump - by the time the driver's seat moves (much less moves enough for the driver to feel and for enough time to have elapsed for the driver to "feel" the bump), the car's tires are well past the bump. The energy goes into the suspension's springs and shocks, and those eventually transmit some of the force to the frame of the car, which then transmits it to the driver's rear end.

There are other reasons, but those are the two primary reasons I say there is no way that people feel a "longer" recoil impulse with slow powder in a pistol or a "faster" impulse with fast powder. Not possible either as a matter of physics nor physiology. (Golfer's can't "feel the ball on the face of the club," either. The ball's long gone by the time the vibrations make it up the shaft and communicate contact quality to the golfer.)
 
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Yeah, you're not going to feel the burn rate itself.
But you can definitely feel the difference between a 115gr load and a 147gr load if you pay attention.
The actual recoil force will be the same or higher with a heavy bullet--all other things being equal--but it's pretty common that it comes slower, making it feel softer. Whether or not that has any actual effect depends on, well, everything involved between muzzle and user, but it's at the very least a perception thing.
In this case it's probably just that a standard quick-burning pistol powder would build some serious pressure getting those rounds to usable speeds.
Of course there's a limit to the difference in an autoloader because it does still need force within certain parameters to actually function. There's virtually no limit to how different you can load for a revolver, as long as you're making sure the bullet actually exits the barrel. I'm sure they'd have a field day loading for .357 or .44.

Actually, for a given momentum/power factor, the heavier bullet with the smaller charge of powder actually will generate less mechanical recoil. This is not because of the shape/speed of the impulse, but because the total impulse is less.
 
I got the impression from the article, that they had spent a fair amount of time and research to get the right powder for such a heavy bullet in a small case.

If I had just discovered that 5 grains of AA#9 would just barely fit into the bottom of the case and still leave room for me to seat a 185 grain pill, I'd probably be very interested in convincing everyone else that I had a "secret sauce" powder, too. There's too much marketing speak and faux science in that bulletin for me to take that at face value.
 
If I had just discovered that 5 grains of AA#9 would just barely fit into the bottom of the case and still leave room for me to seat a 185 grain pill, I'd probably be very interested in convincing everyone else that I had a "secret sauce" powder, too. There's too much marketing speak and faux science in that bulletin for me to take that at face value.

Very likely true but I am a born optimist. I was hoping they had come up with some new super dense but slow powder I could play with too.
 
I got the impression from the article, that they had spent a fair amount of time and research to get the right powder for such a heavy bullet in a small case.
I would certainly hope so.
 
So the challenge is to push a 185 Gr 9M bullet to what velocity? Do they say what it is? I missed it if they did (Easily done for me).

And I guess we would need to buy some of those cool new cases to do it in as well.
 
There are other reasons, but those are the two primary reasons I say there is no way that people feel a "longer" recoil impulse with slow powder in a pistol or a "faster" impulse with fast powder.
Some people can feel the difference, whether it fits your description or not I do not know.

I could see the seams (Read the spin) on a 90 MPH fastball, where most cannot. All that means is that my eyes could see faster than most others. Maybe my brain can "feel" faster than some. Dunno, but I am not the only one who can feel the difference in some applications. :)
 
I don’t doubt you’re feeling A difference, but you’re not feeling THAT difference.
 
I think there are several reasons to doubt that it is physically possible for people to feel the speed of powder as directly driving some "recoil impulse," particularly in handguns. Before I get started, I should emphasize that I am NOT saying that that people feel a "longer" recoil impulse with slow powder in a pistol or a "faster" impulse with fast powder.
Some people can “feel” the difference. It’s called the placebo effect...
 
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It's well known that different powders produce different amounts of recoil to push the same bullet to the same speed when they use different amounts of weight to do so. The powder that uses more weight produces more recoil force as per the conservation of mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

The difference is real and easily measured. In the handgun example at this link, the slow powder (Accurate #7) produced 20% more recoil force than the fast powder (N320) (see table 1). Most folks can easily feel that much of a difference. http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/99442
 
Absolutely! I have posted that same link a bunch of times.

What people are feeling (and what the ransom rest in that test is "feeling") is total recoil, which is influenced by the amount of gas produced/mass of ejecta/etc. They are not feeling burn rate directly. That information is not even transmitted by a pistol with a browning-type system of moving barrel and slide.
 
It's well known that different powders produce different amounts of recoil to push the same bullet to the same speed when they use different amounts of weight to do so. The powder that uses more weight produces more recoil force as per the conservation of mass
So true, but fast powders do it quicker and slow powders do if slower, and some folks can feel the difference, whatever you want to call it. A push vs a strike. rcmodel used to use the bowling ball example.

I cannot prove some can can feel it, and y'all cannot prove some cannot. Since you are adamant that it is impossible, I'll leave you with that.

I used to love watching people argue about how 1911s work, when what does what, the physics behind it, etc, simply awesome. :)
 
Forgot to mention, I prefer the slower recoil impulse of my .458 Win Mag vs things like .30-6, 7MM Mag etc.
 
It’s called the placebo effect...
Nah, the placebo effect is what happens when people who don't know how to shoot a gun feel better simply by having a gun. I also refer to it as the "Talisman Effect".

What you are describing is the power of suggestion. :thumbup:

Don't know that I'd feel the difference. Don't know that I wouldn't though either. We could do blind shoot tests! No safety concern at all!
 
So true, but fast powders do it quicker and slow powders do if slower, and some folks can feel the difference, whatever you want to call it. A push vs a strike. rcmodel used to use the bowling ball example.

I cannot prove some can can feel it, and y'all cannot prove some cannot. Since you are adamant that it is impossible, I'll leave you with that.

I used to love watching people argue about how 1911s work, when what does what, the physics behind it, etc, simply awesome. :)

Technically we could prove it at least on an individual basis.

First create two identical loads (same bullet, same case, same primer fired in the same gun) that differ in only the burn rate of the propellant they use. The loads would be adjusted so they produce the same total recoil impulse as measured on a ballistic pendulum or similar device that measures the actual total recoil impulse from the bullet and propellant.

Once you have a fast and slow burning load that produce the same total recoil impulse you can conduct a double blind study. Take someone that claims they can feel the difference between burn rates of otherwise identical recoiling cartridges asked to fire the two cartridges multiple times in various orders recording their identification of each shot as the fast or slow powder load. You can then statistically analyse the results and fairly conclusively say if they could or could not differentiate the time dependent qualities of the recoil impulse event.

Personally I don't think you could find a shooter that could pass that level or rigor without other clues.
 
I just looked up my old N340 & 125 Gr .357 load that shoots like a laser.

9.1 Grs N340 & 125 Gr XTP for 1275 Avg FPS (Load #106) 98 Degrees

As well as my 2400 load I like so much.

14.5 Grs 2400 & a coated 158 gr SWC for 1241 FPS (Load #220) 85 Degrees

The N340 load is much sharper than the 2400 load. Pistol is a 44 oz 6" M-28 or my 6" Trooper Mk III that I did not look up a weight for. Overall the 2400 load has more recoil, assuming I entered things correctly, but is softer and more pleasant to shoot.

Edit to add.......using the recoil calculator at the link above......

N340 Load:
Recoil Impulse .91 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity 10.64 (fps)
Recoil Energy 4.84 (ft.lbf)

2400 Load:
Recoil Impulse 1.19 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity 13.95 (fps)
Recoil Energy 8.32 (ft.lbf)

Since all recoil figures are larger including the recoil velocity for the 2400 load, I assume what I feel is the difference in acceleration.
 
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