Selecting a SAA Clone

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CannonFodder

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Ok, this question has been asked a thousand times... but, I do have a side question on top of that.

Right now, there seem to be 3 major SAA Clones out there: the Ruger New Vaquero, the Taurus Gaucho, and the Uberti Cattleman.

Of the three, which would you choose?

On the negatives, I've heard that the fitting on the Cattleman is loosest, but serviceable. Taurus gets dogged for poor QC, but mainly for their autos. Ruger... is ruger.

Namely... ya know how S&W today is a "different" company from the one that cut the deal with the Clinton admin? Is Ruger the same, or would I still be supporting the folks who sold us out.

So, yeah... the question is half-functional and half political.
 
The Uberti is nice and simple and they clean up well. They're also the most historical of the bunch because you shouldn't load six. The Taurus is similar to the Uberti with a transfer bar safety and an uglier roll mark. I don't know about QC because honestly that varies with time.

The New Vaquero isn't really a clone of the Colt SAA. It's roughly the same size now, but the guts of the gun are modern. This isn't necessarily bad because they're probably more rugged than the traditional SAA design, especially since all the springs are coil instead of leaf.

If I buy a single action revolver, it will almost certainly be a New Vaquero. It isn't the cheapest single action centerfire on the market, but it is (in my opinion) worth the few extra dollars to get Ruger reliability, the transfer bar, and coil springs.

As for politics, Bill Ruger died in 2002. The AWB died in 2004. If the AWB comes back, it will be the fault of the living not the dead.
 
Someone will be along in a minute to disagree (it always happens), but my pair of Taurus Gauchos is everything that I wanted for CAS. Nice balance, very smooth without needing an action job, and no problems after 18 months of regular usage. Mine are 5.5" .45 Colt CCH. YMMV.
 
they all are fine firearms.rugers are still rugers and Bill GRHS was not totaly in tune with 2A but I'll forgive him he has made some fine firearms.I have little Knoledge of gauchos held one felt ok.I like taurus firearms in general,do agree the rollmark on the bbl is gaudy.If you opt for uberti get one imported through cimarron they cost a little more but have proper markings (ctg denomination and patent dates) and the actions have been CKed and smoothed by a gunsmith here in the states.you'll spend more trying to get a uberti from someone else as smooth.
 
They are all different and it depends what you want. I hear lots of good about the Taurus.
Ruger is an entirely different animal, solid as a rock, but not a SAA.
The Uberti is the only real "SAA Clone" of the bunch, and remember that most of the imported SAA's are made by Uberti, and sold here under different names. They are very good revolvers.

Do little more research, go out and handle a few of each, see which you prefer, and remember-the REAL COLT SAA's are coming down in price...I have seen them at just below $1300 each !

Mark
 
Well, what I'm looking for isn't an "exact" clone, but one that's close enough, and Single Action.
 
Ruger New Vaquero

It will be much more servicable and reliable over the course of your life. Uberti will be most SAA like of the bunch and a pretty good revolver.
 
Not to hijack the subject, but you may want to also check out the
Beretta Stampede. I handled a new one last Saturday at work, with
the beautiful wood grips, color case hardened frame, and bright blue
finish. Needless too say, I was impressed~!:scrutiny: But, I would not be
willing too trade my NIB Ruger 50th Anniversay Blackhawk even up for one.
 
I recently had a chance to handle a Uberti recently. Overall I was impressed with the fit and finish of the revolver. The action was pretty smooth and nickel plated finish was very nice. Of the three your looking at I would go for the Uberti model.

IF your going to go for a SAA clone...then my view is you should go for one that follows the original design the most of the models you consider. To me a SAA or clone would loose its appeal to a great extent if it were heavily modified for saftey or for some other reason from the original design. I hear The Taurus model doesn't have a hammer mounted firing pin(its looks so silly seeing that flat faced hammer on a SAA clone), the New Vaquero isn't even a SAA clone its actually different in size and design and it too doesn't have a hammer mounted firing pin.
 
Ah...this comes up often :).

First thing, you need to decide whether or not you want a modern transfer bar ignition in what otherwise looks "period correct". The transfer bar safety prevents the gun going off if dropped, slammed on the hammer, etc. With a transfer bar, the gun is safe to carry "all six loaded". Without, you carry it "five up" and hammer down on the empty.

So far three guns are shipping that have the look and feel and (at least pretty close) heft of the Colt SAA: Taurus Gaucho, Beretta Stampede (including "Stampede Marshall" and a Bisley variant) and the Ruger New Vaquero.

The Ruger "Old Vaquero" is discontinued. It looked like a Colt except it was built on an oversize 44Magnum-class frame and beefier cylinder. If that's what you want, they're still out there.

The Ubertis are closer to a real 1873 Colt and lack an effective safety. To my mind, such pieces are OK if you're willing to respect them but if you're going to press the gun into street carry you want a transfer bar, and I can make a case for one in home defense and woods carry roles too. The Ubertis are imported by a number of companies, some of which tune them up and add a better warranty with stateside support - Cimarron is well known for this and sell Uberti-based guns in a variety of states of tune all the way up to the extensively reworked "Evil Roy" series.

Beretta bought Uberti recently. The Beretta-brand SAAs are Ubertis but with a transfer bar lockwork added and a high quality level specified. They're good guns and have one thing the Rugers lack: like a period gun, the Beretta loads on the half-cock.

The Ruger New Vaquero is Colt SAA-sized, but internally is a lot different. Coil springs are used throughout (more reliable than flatsprings) and they load with the hammer completely down: just open the loading gate and go. The New Vaqs at least "click" each time the cylinder rotates to a load position (chamber centered in the loading gate). The Old Vaq and all large-frame Ruger SAs annoyingly click when the cylinder bore is halfway past the gate.

The Taurus...well...look, I don't have actual experience but a LOT of people have complained about the Gaucho in particular breaking. Otherwise it's a lot like the Beretta. Personally, I'd buy the Beretta over the Taurus if I wanted maximum authenticity.

What I actually DID buy was a Ruger New Vaq. Quality control on these has been VERY high, better than most previous Ruger SAs. Mine was one of three I examined in 2005 at a dealer and all three were "tight and right" - close cylinder gaps, good alignment, good overall fit'n'finish. At the range mine (a 357) immediately showed it's worth, with windage dead on and elevation a hair high ready to be dialed in for my loads, just the way an SAA-class gun should be.

The good news with the Ruger is it's parts-compatible with a lot of the rest of the Ruger SA product line. Mine now wears a lower-slung SuperBlackHawk hammer and I had the sights improved custom for a better picture - dovetailed Novak front with the rear channel hogged out to match. Other action parts can drop in and the grip frame can be swapped for Bisley, Bird's-Head and the like with easy-to-get and often aftermarket support unheard of in any of the others.

The flaw: the Ruger New Vaqs in blue have a fake color-case process on the frame. It's not that bad looking but it's obviously not real. At least they've tuned the chemistry so it doesn't attract rust (unlike the first time they tried this on the Old Vaq). There's been a special distributor run of all-blue New Vaqs (from Lipseys I think) that you might track down.

Another option: Ruger has an adjustable-sight version of the same mid-frame gun, in 357 only, no fake-case, called the 50th Anniversary Blackhawk 357. It's a good gun if you want to play with varying loads a lot :).

My answer was to dial in my sights dead on for loads in the 135/140gr range and make adjustments from there.

Upshot: if you're into modifying your guns, the Rugers are a home-tuner's paradise. If you want ultra-traditional, think Beretta for a transfer-bar gun, Cimarron otherwise.

vaqhawk.jpg


NOTE: so far I've assumed you're looking for something $550ish or less. In the "grand or more" category there are really good (and good looking) pieces from USFA, STI and of course Colt themselves.
 
Ah yeah, there it is :). Sweet.

Only "problem" is it's a 45LC and no 357 variant available.

Folks, in an SAA-size platform, the 357Mag has more power on tap. The most power you can run in an SAA-class in 45LC is 260gr (hardcast, NOT jacketed) at 1,000fps. In 357Mag you can run 180gr at 1,400fps which if you run the raw energy numbers is "not even in the same ballpark".

Check Buffalo Bore's site:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

Best numbers in 357 (full house, not the "lower power" section!): 783ft/lbs energy.

Best in 45LC in the power levels that an SAA can take (clearly marked as different from the "Ruger ONLY!" stuff for the 44Mag-class frames): 566ft/lbs.

Upshot: 45LC may be traditional as hell, but the 357 has more horsepower plus cheaper ammo available :). Due to the thicker barrel and cylinder walls the heft on the 357s is different - more "muzzle heavy". I intend to run an aluminum ejector housing and grip frame in mine to drop the weight and if I have the cash available, have the barrel custom fluted...but the weight stock isn't bad and helps control the wilder loads...which shoot VERY well.
 
As always, I will agree 100% with Mr. March. He knows of what he speaks.

I've been playing the cowboy action game for about five years now, and I've gone through my share of single action revolvers in that time. My safe currently has four (real) Colts, three Ubertis and three Rugers in it. The one that I recommend without hesitation or reservation is the Ruger. The New Vaquero (or 50th Anniversary Blackhawk .357, which I have one of) really is head and shoulders above anything else in its price class if your primary interest is in shooting the thing.
 
I'm partial to the uberti "true clones," over the rugers and tauri. I've never shot one of the berettas, and so can't really comment. My present match guns are Great Western IIs, made by Pietta, IIRC. My former set were AWA Peacekeepers. They were lighter than average, (not sure why,) and also had a few breakages over the course fo the year and a half I used them. The Pie eaters have been 100% so far. My dad shoots New Vaq's, and thay're pretty nice, but they don't look, feel, or handle like a Colt. Closer than the old ones, but still not there. Ruger's transfer bar setup is a dern sight better than Taurus', though.

~~~Mat
 
Folks, in an SAA-size platform, the 357Mag has more power on tap. The most power you can run in an SAA-class in 45LC is 260gr (hardcast, NOT jacketed) at 1,000fps. In 357Mag you can run 180gr at 1,400fps which if you run the raw energy numbers is "not even in the same ballpark".
kinetic energy is not every thing.IMHO the 200 BB 45colt would perform as well as for SD any 357 given proper bullet placement and that 255 hardcast is as good or better game load than the 180 357mag.not really trying to start a caliber war.I have both and love both,more saying get wichever you wand both will do a great job.

got to thinking( one advantage working on a assembly line)
since I own both I could tell some other differences.
the 45 will recoil more not alot just more however with full house loads the 357 will have alot more muzzle flash and blast ALOT.
Also if you don't reload the 45colt will be WAY more expensive to feed,but if you do reload its not as big of difference.
I would also note old vaqueros are still around and can take the nasty doubletap and buffalobore +p 45 colt loadings.
 
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I think this post of Jim's or one like it should be pinned at the top of this forum. This question comes up at least twice a week. And Jim does a great job of presenting the data, though he must be tired of re-entering it. It helped me come to a decision, too. Well, sort of: I ended up with both a "true" SAA clone and a Ruger Blackhawk, both in .45 Colt... :)

BTW, on this:
Jim March said:
The most power you can run in an SAA-class in 45LC is 260gr (hardcast, NOT jacketed) at 1,000fps.
In your opinion should no jacketed ammo be shot out of an SAA, or only no jacketed ammo loaded to that level, with that weight bullet?

Jacketed rounds tend to have less of a bore seal than properly fitted lead, therefore heavier charges are used for bullets of the same weight.

How about a 230gr jacketed pushed to just less than 1K fps? This is listed as "safe" for all .45 Colts in the Speer manual. That is, not a "Ruger only" load.

-- Sam
 
In your opinion should no jacketed ammo be shot out of an SAA, or only no jacketed ammo loaded to that level, with that weight bullet?

Jacketed rounds tend to have less of a bore seal than properly fitted lead, therefore heavier charges are used for bullets of the same weight.

How about a 230gr jacketed pushed to just less than 1K fps? This is listed as "safe" for all .45 Colts in the Speer manual. That is, not a "Ruger only" load.

Now we're into an area where it's all theory and "book learnin'" on my part, not experience where the 45 is concerned.

My understanding is that in factory ammo, you can get 255/260 class hardcast at 1,000fps, 200gr JHPs (speer and sierra projectiles mainly) at 1,100 and Speer's 250 JHP at 900 or a bit more.

I'm also given to understand that because hardcast is "slicker", you can run heavier hardcasts for the same pressure than you can jacketed. And if you look at the data for ALL of the various "gonzo class" small ammo houses, you see that reflected across all calibers: Doubletap, Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Cor-Bon.

I think Buffalo Bore's data is the most illuminating:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

*Every* independent test of Tim Sundles' loads says they do exactly what he says they'll do, in real world guns versus "test barrels".

In 357, he gets the most energy out of heavy hardcast slugs over the 158 JHPs. Only with JHPs down at 125gr does he manage to edge the 180 in raw energy, and then only by a fraction. Read John Linebaugh's writings on heavy hardcast loads with slow-burn powder and it becomes obvious why:

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

As to a 230 JHP: yeah, you can probably push those close to 1,000 in a modern SAA or clone. Almost certainly in the quality guns that go a fraction oversize on their cylinders (versus the SAA) for safety: USFA and Ruger's New Vaquero are two, I think Uberti and likely Beretta as well.

Quoting Mavracer:

kinetic energy is not every thing.IMHO the 200 BB 45colt would perform as well as for SD any 357 given proper bullet placement and that 255 hardcast is as good or better game load than the 180 357mag.not really trying to start a caliber war.I have both and love both,more saying get wichever you wand both will do a great job.

I think it depends on what you're doing.

If you're *hunting* with hardcast, the 45 has a big edge just in bore size.

In self defense against dangerous animals, maybe not so much. Why? Let's take the case of a charging black bear. Penetration is the name of the game, lengthwise on something tough coming straight at you. I'd rather have a 180gr hardcast with 780ft/lbs energy on it than a 255gr with less than 600.

Energy DOES matter. It's not at all the whole story, true...but it's a factor.

When I split a bowling ball with a 125gr red-hot Doubletap doing over 1,600fps, I was pretty damn surprised. I hit it at around 20 yards out, sent fist-size pieces of the "concrete" (looked like sandstone) core right back past my own feet a bit. The guy I was shooting with had used these as targets for years and had never seen that sort of action with anything less than 7.62x39 rifle fire. I had over 750ft/lbs energy on tap.

I would NOT want to stand in front of that load, OK? That was some wild stuff. Made a believer out of me as far as what the 357 can deliver when not "gelded".

Now call me crazy, and I agree the 45LC is a good load...but good enough to make up for almost 200ft/lbs energy deficit?

I think modern 357 ammo running modern projectiles can take back a lot of the advantage in bore size the 45 starts out with.
 
I would NOT want to stand in front of that load, OK? That was some wild stuff. Made a believer out of me as far as what the 357 can deliver when not "gelded".
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
DoubleTap .45ACP
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
I realize its a acp but same bullet same velocity the gelitin won't know the difference and I for one am not interested in getting in the way of either I'm sure you will agree and add the 45 colt to your list of things you don't get in the way of.

as for stopping the charge of dangerous game with a handgun penatration is king. Kinetic energy plays a big roll in volume of the wound channel.momentum is a greater determining factor where pure penatration is concerned.which would you rather be in at impact the miata going 70 or the suburban going 40 in a head on.granted they'll both F***U* the pedestrian.
sometime read up on Elmer Kieth you'll get a new respect for 250 SWCs at medium velocity ability to stop game and BG.either are very capable rounds and I have shot wild boar with both with about equal success. and as far as self defense goes I'll carry the 357 monday, wednesday and friday and the 45 tuesday,thursday and saturday and alternate sundays and let the BG pick what he gets shot with.
ps.momentum of 255 45Colt=255,000
momentum of 180 357mag=252,000
 
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I will admit I am prejudiced in my choice of SAA clones, but only after handling all the choices. After putting over 1500 rounds through my Taurus Gaucho in .357 I can report zero problems with it and the best trigger action of any revolver I handled. All for a gun that I payed $340.00 out the door 9 months ago. I handled all the other clones and the Gaucho felt the best and has not disappointed me. My son has shot my Gaucho and he says it is favorite gun to shoot. Although others may have had problems I have not had any with mine and intend to buy Taurus firearms in the future. If have a problem in the future with it in the future I have a lifetime warranty from them.
 
Even with identical reliability issues, which the CAS/SASS guys would laugh at, a key difference is in the total lack of "modding possibilities". If you like the Gaucho as is, I hope you do, because parts swapping just ain't gonna happen. You have that grip frame, that hammer, that base pin, that lock staring you in the face right before you cock it :).

Seriously, you've got like 30+ years worth of weird spare parts available in the Ruger world. Even more aftermarket. I haven't decided yet between a brass MKTech Bird's Head or take an Aluminum XR3-RED grip frame and mod the crap out of it, dropping the weight at the same time.

Buy a Taurus and that's the last decision you get to make. Booooring!

---

The Beretta mod options are a little better. The "Lightning" grip frame as used on the Marshall appears identical to what Cimarron sells in their parts catalog. Ditto their version of the Bisley. And you can mod the stock grip frame into a Bird's Head pretty easily, since it uses a flatspring like the Colt.

You only have two hammer choices (regular and Bisley) where the Rugers have a mid-way option (SuperBlackHawk).

Stock is boring :).
 
I know you listed 3 different revolvers and I'm not trying to tell you to buy something else. I'm only mentioning these revolvers because you might not know about them. I like the Ruger and the offerings from Navy Arms. The Uberti revolvers are also excellent but I don't like the fact they are exactly like the originals since you shouldn't load 6.

Navy Arms makes really nice SA revolvers: http://www.navyarms.com/html/sa_rev_of_west.html

Beretta's Stampede revolvers are nice too: http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_pistols_main.htm

Cimarron Firearms Co. has a lot of different revolvers that look authentic and the prices aren't that high: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/

There are other companies but their revolvers are expensive!
http://www.chaparralfirearms.com/
http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/single-action-revolver.asp (very expensive!!)
 
I'd go for an Uberti. It's a true SAA clone where the others are not. I love that real SAA look and feel. Even the sounds it makes when it's manipulated are a delight. :)

I love and deeply respect Rugers, but they just do not scratch that Single Action Itch. Not for me, anyway.
 
Navy Arms and Cimarron are just importers. Revolvers sold under the Navy Arms and Cimarron brands are made by Uberti, so if you buy a Navy Arms or Cimarron, you're buying Uberti. There's nothing wrong with that -- just providing the info.

I have and use Ubertis in SASS. I don't necessarily recommend them, though. They tend to be fairly rough out of the box. They don't get a much hand work, and are full of machine marks and burrs on the internals, hammer slot, etc. The springs always have visible machine marks, often running perpendicular to the length of the spring. Uberti overcomes the inherent drag of these poorly finished and fitted parts by using quite heavy springs, which make the guns difficult to cock, and the triggers heavy and/or creepy. In addition, the heavy springs cause the poorly finished parts to abrade each other, resulting in failures under heavy use. The machine striations on the springs act as stress risers, and broken springs are a common problem as a result.

All of these issues can be overcome. Uberti mainsprings need to be replaced, or carefully narrowed (to lighten) and polished (to eliminate the striations), which you can do at home if you know what you're doing. You have to go slow and keep the metal cool or you'll de-temper it.

Other internals need to be stoned and polished. Hand and hammer slots, too. The hand springs are a weak point that just need replacing, though you can fashion good, reliable hand springs from bobby pins (your wife knows that those are and probably has a few she'll give you).

With all that work, you'll have a firearm that is starting to approach the reliability of a USFA or Colt, but still won't be as nicely finished as a USFA or Colt. You'll have saved a lot of money, though, since USFA's go for $800+ and Colts for $1200+.

None, however, will match the reliability of a Ruger. The Ruger has inherent advantages in its basic design, including the use of coil springs throughout that are pretty much indestructable. And in the cowboy action shooting game, reliability is key.

I shoot Ubertis because I have a thing for the 1875 pattern Remington, and I'm not competitive enough to have my day or weekend ruined by the occasional broken spring. I do have three identical Navy Arms (Uberti) 1875 Remingtons that I take to every match, though, so when one of my two primary revolvers breaks, I have a back-up to last me through the rest of the match. If I was shooting Rugers, I probably wouldn't bother with a back-up. I've learned by experience that a back-up to a Uberti is a necessity.
 
Add Pietta to the list of companies that sell products under the Cimarron name. The Cimarron "Pistolero" and maybe others are Pietta guns. Nothing wrong with that; Pietta also makes guns sold under the Great Western, EMF, and some other names.

The modern Ubertis are allegedly "better" than those of a few years ago. They're using upgraded springs, and apparently there is a little more attention to detail in the actions of the current guns. You can also get the "Evil Roy" model, which is a upgraded/hand tuned version of the base model.

You can also buy pre-tuned Ubertis through Longhunter.com. For about $500 you get a fully tuned base model. I have no direct experience with this vendor, but I've heard very good things about him.

As I stated above, I have both Rugers and a "true" SAA clone. The SAA definitely has some romance with the clicks, the heft, the roll, and the general construction. The Ruger has its own strong points -- I have 4 of their single actions. You can get parts and accessories for the true clones as easily as for the Rugers (Brownells). I too really prefer to buy guns for which I can get parts from sources other than the manufacturer.

Personally, I'm glad I bought both. They're two different guns/platforms. They're both accurate. It really comes down to personal preference.

-- Sam
 
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