self defense against police?

[Homerboy]

I can't figure out how to quote others here, so I'll just throw it all in together:

My experience is NOT from watching cops. It's from BEING a cop. The TV show is edited and not to be trusted at all. COPS came to my old precinct once and asked if they could ride along. Not one cop wanted them with them in the car.

New York City is as big a metropolitan area as you can get. My experience (and those of my freinds and family) has been that you will NOT be approached by a cop if you aren't doing something wrong. Have I been stopped on St. Patrick's Day with a brown bag and told to dump it? You bet. Of course, if I wasn't breaking the law by walking around with an open container, I wouldn't have been approached. In a city with 8 MILLION people, the odds of a cop singling YOu out for doing NOTHING wrong are pretty remote. Guess you think the cop has better things to do than to pull you over for not wearing a seatbelt. Doesn't change the fact you are violating the VTL and he had every right to stop you.

Rodney King deserved every hit he took. He refused to pull over and led the cops on a 100 mph chase. When he gets out of the car, he is drunk AND high on PCP (ever try to stop a person high on PCP? You could cut their arm off and it just pisses them off I guess your super secret mall ninja skills could do a better job). He's 6'4 and nearly 300 lbs. His passenger, who complied with the cops' orders was not touched at all. King had been locked up many times before and over 13 times SINCE the incident. He's a dirtbag. The cops were aquitted the first time, and the second trial was to appease the rabble rousers. LA did not want another riot, and the cops were sold out. EVERYONE of those hits were in accordance with LAPD training at the time. Once the cuffs went on, he wasn't hit again. Why would you ease up on a man high on PCP just because he's on his hands and knees? He's still a threat.

Cop bashers ALL have one thing in common. They have had negative interactions with the police (or someone they know has and they trust everything that person tells them. haven't you ever heard the term "there are no guilty men in prison? " Do you believe that one, too?). I'm QUITE certain those interactions came with good reason. Don't act like a dirtbag and you won't get treated like one. If you happen to meet up with one of these "rogue cops" (Ohh! Sounds scary!), comply with the orders and deal with him later. OR you can just invite the deserved beating in the hopes of winning the "City Lotto". Get yourselvef a Johnny Cockran and you too can be sipping Mai Tai's on the beach!

Interfering with a lawful arrest because YOU THINK the cop is being out of line should get you a trip to the ER, follwed by a trip to jail.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

A cop is guilty of a federal crime in certain circumstances if he illegally arrests you (for a law that does not exist, that is, you're doing something perfectly legal and he claims it isn't, for example).

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm

And this isn't cop bashing, but any abuse of power by an LEO or other govt. official must not be tolerated.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Hey Homerboy, and welcome to the high road.
To quote others, use the little quote box icon just above the text box. It looks like a little cartoon speech balloon with lines of text in it. Paste your text between the little {{QUOTE][/QUOTE}} prompt, and voila, there's a quote.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Homerboy,
Fine, things are hunky dory in NY city. Good for you.
My sister is an LEO, my BIL is an LEO, my uncle who died three weeks ago was a retired DC cop, so I am not saying this as a cop basher.
99.9999% of all cops are of high integrity IMO, but living in Prince George's County Maryland I have seen first hand police abuse of people who were basically just in the wrong place at the wrong time. PG cops made 60 Minutes twice for police abuse in the 80s, had so many complaints they had to establish citizen reveiw committee, the feds threw a number of them in prison for civil rights violations, etc.
The department cleaned up its act and is a good department right now, but I can say first hand that rogue cops and mismanaged departments exist in this country.

Would I resist an arrest? No, but if I was one of those people I saw getting slammed by two cops while handcuffed, hit with billy clubs while on the ground, or had a hand stuck hard up my butt while being "searched", I just might resist too. Good thing that in MD there is no such thing as resisting an unlawful, warrentless arrest.

 

[Jeff White]

General Geoff said;

Rule of thumb is that if they're recording you, you can record them as well.

There are no rules of thumb when dealing with eavesdropping laws. They are different everywhere. If you want to stay out of trouble, contact a lawyer where you are at and ask.

In Illinois, you cannot record any audio without the knowledge and consent of everyone involved in the conversation. It doesn't matter if the police are recording you. They can't without a warrant except for things like a dash cam which is specifically spelled out in the law.

Blackfork said;

Jeff's blue post tells any observer everything one might need to know about the mess we are in and the conflict between the Bill of Rights and laws written since 1960.

Many of those laws have been on the books in one form or another for a lot longer then 1960.

I suppose you have some misguided sense of fairness, and if you don't feel you're being arrested fairly for something you did wrong, you should be permitted to resist?

You know what, I arrested all kinds of people who didn't think (or said they didn't at the time) they were being legally arrested. Funny thing was, the court agreed with me.

I suppose you'd have a society where no one could be arrested unless the criminal felt the arrest was fair and justified?

Jeff

 

[TexasRifleman]

Interfering with a lawful arrest because YOU THINK the cop is being out of line should get you a trip to the ER, follwed by a trip to jail.

But the point here is what if, this one time, your thinking was right.

There is no place in a society for a free people to not have laws on the books such as we've been discussing for that 1 in 10,000, even 1 in 1,000,000 case where a person empowered by the government (the people) has abused his position and authority and there are cases where it has been most certainly clear enough for people to resist, and be held harmless from it in court.

Is it gonna happen to one of us? About as likely as one of us winning the powerball, but it could certainly happen.

Talking about these corner cases is an interesting thought game, playing "what if" and amateur attorney. It's by no means cop bashing, and suggesting that any question of an authority figure is "cop bashing" is exactly the kind of attitude that is to be questioned.

 

[Greell]

Actually homerboy. I don't have a problem with the law per-say. My family is a long line of LEO's. Like I said I have a lot of respect for GOOD upstanding cops.

HOWEVER, have I had bad experiences with the police before? YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT. I was jumped once by some little thugs that tried to rob me, I was fighting them off even though one of the little ones had a gun (a very pretty Smith and Wesson too...)

After they bailed (I assume because they thought I was insane for mauling the kid with the gun while 3 others tried to beat me off of him)

I explained myself to the police, told them what happened, they said I was foolish and should have given them my wallet (which they are right, it is better to be broke and alive than dead and rich right? lucky (or unlucky?) for me I have little regard for my own life)

anyhow, she started yelling at me about some random stuff because it was new-years, and her shift was about to end and how I was "wasting her time" making her come out for such a stupid issue (like she wouldn't have had to do it if they took my wallet anyway?)

she was unpleasant, filthy, and I reported her to her boss, and apparently he told me she was already being investigated.

I like the police, I have friends and family that are police.

But I hate trash cops that are corrupted, disrespectful (when I am being perfectly respectful and compliant) ---and overall unpleasant when they shouldn't be.

cops often have a reason, but you can't even pretend to ignore that there are a lot of cops that A) Shouldn't be cops because they can't control their emotions, which leads them to make radical decisions, or B) just don't care, they're the law, you're whatever they say you are.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Homerboy wrote:

Interfering with a lawful arrest because YOU THINK the cop is being out of line should get you a trip to the ER, follwed by a trip to jail.

Or the cop gets a trip to the ER, and then jail. There's always someone tougher or smarter. And, in rare instances, both. Seldom can one easily ascertain whom that is, in any given situation.

I wonder if it were your mother getting treated poorly by a cop, if you would feel the same way. Down in these parts, New Yorkers and your neighbors from Jersey are held in very low regard by everyone due to their lack of an "inside voice" and cultural differences. It's entirely possible that your mother could fall under this situation while visiting the South.

She gets a voice command, gets mouthy, gets the tazer, more mouth, and then gets cuffed and stuffed.
I wonder if you'd feel the same then if you were watching all this go down? Or, what if I were watching and you weren't around. Could I help your poor mama? No? Really?

I grew up here. I've seen this happen primarily to Yankees and minorities.

 

[Greell]

and TexasRifleman said it best---this isn't real, it's a hypothetical situation, designed to spark peoples thoughts on the topic. it isn't about bashing anyone. so lets not turn it into that

 

[Homerboy]

So when the Jamaican who "thinks" that pot should be legal resists arrest, he is justified? We all have a right to QUESTION a cop's authority when he's making an arrest "Officer, why am I being arrested (rhetorical question 99 times out of a 100). When he says "For not having a license" and you KNOW that you showed up to that court date and you THINK the cop has no right to arrest you, you're dead wrong. Plain and simple.

Prince George's County or not, I still stand by my original post. I've been in many of the 50 states, and NEVER have I been stopped, questioned, or harassed by a cop if I didn't deserve it. All questions were met with polite responses, and I was sent on my way. Cops have enoguh to worry about with the dope they're trying to collar. Some yahoo who wants to butt in deserves whatever he gets.

 

[Homerboy]

I wonder if it were your mother getting treated poorly by a cop, if you would feel the same way. Down in these parts, New Yorkers and your neighbors from Jersey are held in very low regard by everyone due to their lack of an "inside voice" and cultural differences. It's entirely possible that your mother could fall under this situation while visiting the South.

She gets a voice command, gets mouthy, gets the tazer, more mouth, and then gets cuffed and stuffed.
I wonder if you'd feel the same then if you were watching all this go down? Or, what if I were watching and you weren't around. Could I help your poor mama? No? Really?

I grew up here. I've seen this happen primarily to Yankees and minorities

My mother wouldn't get mouthy to a cop. And yeah, there are some dirtbag cops out there. I hope they get fired. Doesn't change the fact that until they do, THEY are the police, and while you have a right to question them and make a complaint about them, you don't have the right to resist them.

When you allow people to resist because they don't think it's fair they're being arrested, you're only gonna have problems. I'll bet if you polled 1000 people who got collared, you wouldn't come up with more than 5 who admit they should be wearing cuffs.

And as for the "Yankee" comments. Spare me. The Civil War is over. You lost. The only cops I have ever heard anybody having trouble with were the Good Ol Boys from down South. I recall being pulled over while driving down to Spring Break before I came on the job. In spite of ALL the other cars passing us, Roscoe P Coletraine picked ours to pull over. he called us Yankees, too. He was kind of a dick. Still, we had nothing to hide, and we took our summons because even though we didn't think it was right that he ignored all the other in staters in favor of us Yanks, we were speeding and we paid the fine.

By the way, some dick Virginia cops pulled over a caravan of marked police cars coming back from the Katrina cleanup. He just had to write the Sgt. in uniform. It sucked, but she was speeding. Guess he just couldn't resist wring a Yank, huh?

 

[Frog48]

while you have a right to question them and make a complaint about them, you don't have the right to resist them.

The problem is that there are some cops out there that dont understand the difference between questioning and resisting. They take it personally when you question them, because they've let the power go to their head and they believe that they're the ultimate authority. So you get beaten and hauled downtown because the cop feels the need to keep the lowly regular folks "in their place".

You're right, cops are usually good upstanding people. What I dont understand is why the good ones feel that its necessary to stick up for and defend the bad ones. When that happens, which it makes ALL cops look bad. I guess its that "Blue wall of silence" thing...

 

[Nil]

Similar topic... Let's say the police raid your house on a no-knock warrant but have the wrong house (this has happened a time or three according to CATO). Let's say you open fire because you think it's thugs on a home invasion spree, and you drop a couple of them. If you live through the encounter, I'm sure you'd be arrested. How would this play out in court?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

Cheese had the story essentially right. I encourage you to read Radley Balko's reporting on it through his blog http://www.theagitator.com/

 

[Jeff White]

The problem is that there are some cops out there that don't understand the difference between questioning and resisting.

What is the difference Grant? I made an arrest last February and if I still wanted to be going through the questioning phase, I'd most likely still be there with the guy. There comes a point when questioning becomes resisting.

What I dont understand is why the good ones feel that its necessary to stick up for and defend the bad ones. When that happens, which it makes ALL cops look bad. I guess its that "Blue wall of silence" thing...

I think you'll find that the good ones will be the first in line to run them out, prosecute them or worse....after the facts are in. You learn real quickly that there are usually at least as many sides to a story as there are participants and witnesses. If I jumped to the same conclusions most of you do every time I was dispatched to a call, there would be a lot of innocent people who had been arrested. Cause things very often aren't how they are first reported.

Unfortunately not everyone is that way, and when the first report seems to confirm their personal prejudices and biases, we get long contentious threads.

Jeff

 

[Nil]

There comes a point when questioning becomes resisting.

No there isn't. If you had enough to arrest the man, arrest him and ignore the questions. If you don't have enough to arrest him, his questions do not merit a charge.

 

[Jeff White]

No there isn't. If you had enough to arrest the man, arrest him and ignore the questions. If you don't have enough to arrest him, his questions do not merit a charge.

Yes, there is! How many arrests have you made? What's your personal experience with arresting anyone?

Trust me on this, some people will pull away, push you or kick at you or even swing at you, when you ignore the questions and arrest them. At that point by any definition I can think of, we're into resisting and possible aggravated battery to a peace officer.

Jeff

 

[Nil]

Obviously if they make a physical attempt to resit it's crime. My comment was limited to if someone were to comply with all your demands while still asking questions. I'm not sure how often that happens, though probably fairly infrequently, but those questions should not merit a resisting arrest charge.

 

[Frog48]

Cop bashers ALL have one thing in common. They have had negative interactions with the police... I'm QUITE certain those interactions came with good reason.

I'm not a cop basher, but I am suspicious of them. Without oversight, law enforcement (like all professions) would run amock.

You're darn right, I've had a negative experience with the cops. I was driving on the interstate in a very rural area in the evening. I was pulled over for speeding... I did not stop immediately, as the area was not lit, so I slowed down, put on my signal, and proceeded to an exit with streetlights. I was merely following the recommendations that cops give when they do Meet-and-Greet Q&A presentations to civic groups (Boy Scouts, churches, schools, etc)... proceed to a well lit area for a traffic stop after dark.

Well, the state trooper decided to treat it as a felony stop, and ordered me out of my truck at gunpoint, cuffed me, searched my truck, and then took me to the county jail. When exiting my truck, I followed his requests to the letter, making sure that he wouldnt misinterpret any of my movements and put a bullet in my head. On the way down, he berated me for "not complying", and became further enraged (yes, ENRAGED) when I refused to answer why I didnt stop immediately, without counsel present. Apparently he thought it was unreasonable that I invoked my 5th Amendment rights. I had nothing to hide, but I wanted to make sure I didnt accidentally say something stupid. He tried to have me charged with evading arrest with a motor vehicle, which in Texas is a felony.

Fortunately, the district attorney's office exercised some common sense. After a phone conversation with my lawyer, the DA admitted that my actions were totally reasonable, that they would not accept the trooper's recommendation to file charges. He said that the patrol car's video footage and audio was consistant with my account. The DA's office even sent me a written letter of apology, which I'm told is very rare.

This put a particularly bad taste in my mouth, considering that Texas State Troopers are supposedly the "most professional" LEO's in the state.

So yes, upstanding citizens get hassled by cops.

 

[Jeff White]

The questions aren't resisting. Failure to comply with instructions is. They can (and have) talk all the way to the jail if they want. But if they refuse to comply with instructions while continuing to talk, it's resisting.

For instance, I have a guy wanted on a warrant. I break the news to him and ask him to turn around and place his hands behind his back. The response is;
"I can't be wanted on a warrant, I paid that ticket!"

"Well sir, the computer says you have a warrant the dispatcher has called the county the warrant was issued from and verified it's valid. If it's a mistake at the courthouse, you're going to have to straighten it out with them. Please turn around and place your hands behind your back."

"You can't take me to jail, I've got to be at work in the morning."

"There is nothing I can do, the law says I must arrest you on this warrant, let's not make this any harder then it needs to be."

The conversation goes on in this manner.....

When it reaches the point where I place my hands on him to make him submit to arrest, it's resisting....

Jeff

 

[Nil]

The questions aren't resisting. Failure to comply with instructions is. They can (and have) talk all the way to the jail if they want. But if they refuse to comply with instructions while continuing to talk, it's resisting.

I took your first post that I replied to to mean that questions themselves were unlawful. But as that is not the case, then apparently we just had a problem of miscommunication because I agree with what you just said.

 

[DKSuddeth]

maybe people are obfuscating the issue to make a point.

In jeffs hypothetical, resistance is futile. It's nothing that a little time and paperwok can't fix, even though it's inconvenient.

Do we abide by all LEO direction and instruction with full faith and credit? Some on here obviously say yes, but I ask you then, if said LEO told you to conceal your weapon (if you were OCing) but you don't have a permit for concealed, do you? simply because you were given a direction to?

The decision to resist an unlawful arrest is completely up to the discretion of that person who is having the encounter. There is no black and white letter law to it. It is all grey and vague and you must acknowledge that you are literally taking your life in to your own hands when/if you do so. It isn't right that we are placed in to this predicament, but that is life and could also be considered the cost of freedom.

 

[Homerboy]

Well, the state trooper decided to treat it as a felony stop, and ordered me out of my truck at gunpoint, cuffed me, searched my truck, and then took me to the county jail. When exiting my truck, I followed his requests to the letter, making sure that he wouldnt misinterpret any of my movements and put a bullet in my head. On the way down, he berated me for "not complying", and became further enraged (yes, ENRAGED) when I refused to answer why I didnt stop immediately, without counsel present. Apparently he thought it was unreasonable that I invoked my 5th Amendment rights. I had nothing to hide, but I wanted to make sure I didnt accidentally say something stupid. He tried to have me charged with evading arrest with a motor vehicle, which in Texas is a felony.

Sounds like a real dick to me. Cops ARE human, and he might have taken it to far. That's when you take his badge number and file a complaint. If the PD tries to ****can it, you keep on it until the cop is reprimanded or fired. I never saw a cop fired who didn't deserve it, and I never missed them as they walked out the door.

There is a fundamental lack of respect for authority in this country. Kids talking back to adults and their teachers, as well as the police. people come to court wearing t-shirts and chewing gum. People won't even stand up for the pledge of alleigiance anymore. As far as I am concerned, the cops get the benefit of the doubt. Until I see that they went over the line, they get my backing. 99.9% of the people in cuffs deserve to be there.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Homerboy,
Peace, man. I wasn't impuning your mother's virtue. I was just giving a hypothetical situation.

And, for what its worth, I'm sorry you've found yourself such an unwelcome guest here where grits are served for breakfast.

I understand your position, and hope you understand my points.

"Don't taze me, Bro!"

 

[DKSuddeth]

thus we see the idiocy of alot of people in homerboys ideology, that if you're in cuffs, you obviously deserve to be there. that kind of black and white thinking is why we're in the mess we are in. thanks for playing.

 

[Homerboy]

Wheelgun: No offense taken. I have looked into moving down south many times and it still is a possibility. I have many freinds and family there, and you would never put the "loud mouth New Yorker" moniker on me. I'm as mellow as they come. I'd rather have a bowl of Cheerios for breakfast, but grits is something I COULD get used to!

thus we see the idiocy of alot of people in homerboys ideology, that if you're in cuffs, you obviously deserve to be there. that kind of black and white thinking is why we're in the mess we are in. thanks for playing.

Are you saying that SOMETIMES a guy in cuffs didn't do something to deserve it? I'll give you that. When someone files a false complaint on someone else (He grabbed my ass in the bar. I want him locked up!) or when the ex is pissed that the child support is late so she makes a BS complaint, I'll give you that.

As for a cop arbitrarily picking on someone for no reason who did NOTHING wrong, I've yet to see it. Have I ever used the penal law to teach some dirtbag a lesson to prevent me from coming back yet again? yep. No problems with it. NOT ONE guy I ever collared didn't deserve it.

Think of it this way, for every one arrest a cop makes, how many calls or public interations did he have? If you're going away in cuffs, either you deserve it or someone is filing a false complaint, and that certainly isn't the cop's fault. When my bull**** meter used to ring, I would simply inform the one being arrested that he had the option of filing a complaint on the victim. When the cuffs came out for that one, they usually changed their tume.