Self Defense Ammo

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waynesan

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I've been carrying for about 7 years now and while I've learned a lot about guns and have picked up a few along the way, I've never really understood a lot about all the different types of ammo available by all the companies that make it. If I go to some of the web sites that sell ammo, the choices are so many and confusing as far as what the ammo really does I usually just get a hollow point and forget about all the other options.

So here is what I'm asking for help about. The three guns I carry are (depending on the situation) :

Taurus PT25 .25 cal.
Ruger P94 .40 cal.
Smith & Wesson 686 .357 cal.

What ammo would you carry in these guns for defensive purposes? Any advice will be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.
 
In fact probably - your choice will not be too critical. Your use of said ammo will matter much more.

Personally tho I favor Speer over others - much as anything because the Gold Dot's expansion performance seems (to me) the most consistent. But hey - if we don't put em in the right place it hardly matters so much!

You will probably get a multitude of suggestions - but frankly - if a round from a reputable manufacturer, I don't think you'll go too far wrong.
 
Reliability - Includes reliable with all magazines.
Point of Aim / Point of Impact (POA/POI) - for YOUR gun.
Shoot Dirt.

My belief is: shot placment, shot placment, shot placment.

In order to accomplish this the firearm must be reliable , including magazines if a semi-auto, ammo must feed and extract. One must hit what aimed at, so since often times one's gun PREFERS a given load better than others, testing and knowing POA/ POI is important.

Each gun and each shooter is different. One gun may PREFER a loading and that load will NOT work best for YOU or YOUR Gun. One person may in fact be able to shoot a larger caliber, or a Load with more recoil and still obtain fast follow up shots - YOU may not be able to.

Most often used example is a .357 revolver. Some can shoot .357 loads with no problem - for others the recoil does not allow quick follow up shots, these folks use .38 spls that do allow them quick follow up shots. Do check POA/POI and know difference if switching b/t these loading in same .357 revolver. One may get "caught" and have to use one or the other...

Once one finds a load THEIR guns are reliable with, shoot POA/ POI with and Shooter can get quick accurate hits, then shoot dirt to see how bullet performs. Amazing how this often mirrors results of bullets taken from game.

I prefer to find easy to obtain OTC loadings, also to have a selection to choose from for various firearms. One may be out of town , need to buy and real comforting to find a proven tested loading OTC.

For example, many folks use Winchester White Box Personal Defense loads. These are available many places and allows one to afford to test 100-200 rds in a gun AND all carry magazines. Also allows one to practice with Carry loads.

Fiocchi is another for example -in some areas of the country is very affordable and VERY good ammo.

Demographics play some part in this. Nice to know if you are out of town, your gun will run with more than one OTC choice.



Regards,

Steve
 
I think that any premium self-defense ammo from a major manufacturer (i.e. Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, etc. - and note that I said "premium", not cheap practice stuff) is likely to be reasonably effective, given the time and money they put into developing it. As long as it's in line with the bullet weight and velocity of their competitors, I'll feel reasonably comfortable with it. The only exceptions to this are things like Federal's Personal Defence line, which is deliberately downloaded in terms of velocity to make the recoil more acceptable. It succeeds in this aim, but only at the expense of compromising terminal performance. Thus, I check out the specs against the competitors' offerings in that caliber. If they're roughly comparable, I'm comfortable with it. If they're too much out of line with the rest, I avoid it.

I agree with sm that accuracy and shot placement are more important than the actual round. Sure, I won't carry FMJ or ball ammo from choice, due to the risk of overpenetration: but even this will perform adequately if placed in the right spot to immobilize an attacker.

My main concern is the reliability of the chosen load in the defensive weapon(s) and magazine(s). I follow the "200-round test" religiously. That defensive ammo, in that gun, with those magazines, must feed and fire 200 rounds without a single stoppage or problem of any kind. Any difficulty, and the 200-round test begins again from Round 1. If the gun can't pass that test, I try a different brand of ammo. If the gun fails that test with two different brands of ammo, I dispose of the gun.

This can get expensive, given the cost of premium defensive ammo: but my life is worth more to me than a few boxes of ammo, and I won't compromise on this one. I'll also do the test over again for a second gun, even if it's identical to the first. Just because one gun functions fine with that ammo doesn't mean that its littermate won't have any problems. (Of course, with a revolver, one doesn't have to bother about feeding, just function. However, I still will put at least 50 rounds of my chosen defensive load through a revolver, partly to zero the sights to that load, if applicable, and partly to ensure that there are no hard primers that fail to detonate when struck. Some primers have been known to cause problems, and I'd rather find this out during testing than in a lethal-force encounter.)
 
Assuming that the vast majority of high quality ammo you try is reliable and accurate (which is usually the case), you should pick a round that penetrates 12" or more. 13"-15" is optimal.

For the .40, pick something on this list, any of them will do. I'm partial to Golden Sabers, myself.

For the .25, the choice is even easier. FMJ or bust. No .25 hollowpoints will be able to penetrate deep enough to reach the vital organs from all common shooting angles.

For the .357, your choices are a bit more difficult. Winchester Partition Gold and Winchester 145 grain Silvertips are supposed to be good, but you couldn't make me touch anything Winchester with a 10 foot pole. Remington 125 grain Golden Sabers are also supposed to be very good, and have light recoil to boot. 125 grain Gold Dots are decent as well, but the 158 ones tend to overpenetrate a bit; they're more of a hunting round. If your 686 is a 2.5" barreled snubby, Speer's short barrel Gold Dot is pretty much as good as it gets. But at a higher velocity, like through a full sized gun, the short barrel Gold Dots will overexpand, with the "petals" getting smashed flat against the bullet shank, causing a small expanded diameter and too deep penetration.



I think that any premium self-defense ammo from a major manufacturer (i.e. Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, etc. - and note that I said "premium", not cheap practice stuff) is likely to be reasonably effective, given the time and money they put into developing it.

You should take Winchester off that list. They don't put a single penny or a single second into actual development of the ammunition which they deign to make available to us peons. See my "10 foot pole" link above.
 
think that any premium self-defense ammo from a major manufacturer (i.e. Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, etc. - and note that I said "premium", not cheap practice stuff) is likely to be reasonably effective, given the time and money they put into developing it.
I concur 100%.

Pick a reliable firearm, pick good quality ammunition. Make sure the combination works together. Then don't think about your firearm and your ammunition. They will take care of you as long as you have put in enough range time to be proficient with them.
 
for your 40 cal i would use either federal HST or Winchester Ranger.

The HST round is presegmented, which allows it to really expand on impact. I shot a 45 ACP federal HST round into some water jugs. The recovered bullet diameter was 1.04 inches. The recovered round looks like a star fish.
17884.jpg

(i heard that federal fixed the problem with expanding when passing through a couple layers of demin)


The winchester Ranger round is the newer version of the black talon. When the round expands, it exposes several sharp talons. This allow the bullet to cut tissue that would otherwise be pushed aside.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/article417.htm


As for your 25 cal pistol i would go with a full metal jacket over a hollow point. This will allow you to get a little more pentration.

poe
 
Preacherman - Good points and we agree.

In My testing in one of my MY guns for example: The Win 9mm 115 gr STHP performs exactly as does the WWB 115 gr JHP Personal Defence load. Now I have run various loads thru this particualr gun. Like 400 rds of the 115 gr STHP in one day with NO malfs.

This / These STHP in 9mm and 45ACP feed and extract well in every gun I have tried them in.

Now I just cleaned and inspected this particular gun. It was time to replace the Carry loads, so the STHP will be range ammo. Still the option is, if I were caught out, and since I have tested - I could use the WWB 115 gr JHP for a defence load.

Just...don't....tell...anyone....*somebody* left his loadings at home and shot up all his old CCW ammo , his ammo in spare mags, and loaded up his CCW with Blazer 9mm FMJ to get back home.
Gunsmith didn't have any CCW 9mm loads, all he had was old stuff, he was CCW-ing a .45 and .45 won't smush to fit a 9mm...

Got the 124 grainers in *somebody's* gun ...when he got home that is :p
 
sm said:
Preacherman - Good points and we agree.

In My testing in one of my MY guns for example: The Win 9mm 115 gr STHP performs exactly as does the WWB 115 gr JHP Personal Defence load. Now I have run various loads thru this particualr gun. Like 400 rds of the 115 gr STHP in one day with NO malfs.

This / These STHP in 9mm and 45ACP feed and extract well in every gun I have tried them in.
Well, I been hanging out in this hood for a few months now, but 'STHP' was a new acronym for me.

I had to search it.

I think it translates to 'silver tip hollow point'. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

So, now I'm curious. Why silver?

What's so special about silver, given the price?

Personally, my K9 is loaded with Rem Golden Saber 124's, but 'golden' doesn't translate into 'gold'. (If so, I'd do well to sell them bullets.)

OK, just rambling now. Time for bed.

But seriously: silver tip?

Someone expecting werewolves?

:D

Nem
 
I tend to favor medium to heavy bullets depending on the gun and cartridge combination.

in .25acp choices are limited; in any case I would stick to any hardball that feeds reliably.

In .40; any premium heavy hollowpoint that feeds reliably and offers acceptable practical accuracy. All spare magazines filled with any reliably feeding and acceptably accurate 180 to 200 grain load with a FMJ bullet.

.357; any acceptably accurate load with 158 grain Speer Gold Dots, or similar heavy bullet. Extra loaders filled with something like Fiocchi 140 grain FMJ - or other good penetrator offering acceptable accuracy.
----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
"Silvertip" was Winchester's pet name for a jacketed load jacketed in *aluminum* - silver in color. The name caught on so some later variants used silver coloring over other metals (copper, brass) to get a similar look.

--------------

IF your barrel length is abnorally short for your caliber, watch out. You need to be pickier than usual about your ammo or it won't expand.

In a 38Spl snubbie (2" barrel), there's not that many rounds I'd carry. They include:

* Winchester or Remington 158grain classic lead hollowpoint +P. Remmies if I can find them, they're a tad hotter.

* Winchester 130grain Supreme JHP+P.

* Speer 125gr Gold Dot +P as loaded by Speer, Proload, Black Hills, probably others.

* Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P - it's a Speer-only load right now, and is HARD to get. Possibly the best snubbie load ever made, bar none. They specifically tried to solve the crimp jump problem on the 10oz-12oz "Riboflavin" S&Ws.

* Cor-Bon 110gr +P if the gun is tough enough.

* Bufallo Bore 158gr gas-checked lead hollowpoint +P, again, only in a tough 38spl gun (or of course any 357). Moves at 1,000fps from a 2" barrel. WILL jump crimp in anything lighter than 15-16oz or so - Scandiums, Taurus TIs, forget it.

And that's basically IT. One hell of a lot of other loads out there won't expand out of a snubbie.

Similar issues can happen with any short-tube gun.
 
waynesan said:
Taurus PT25 .25 cal.
Ruger P94 .40 cal.
Smith & Wesson 686 .357 cal.

What ammo would you carry in these guns for defensive purposes? Any advice will be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.

I prefer not to make ammo recommendations without a more detailed knowledge of applications and risk assessments.

What do you believe are your greatest risks and most likely needed applications? Mugging? Car-jacking? Someone abducting your child? Home invasion? Dog attack? Bear Attack? Attack by drug addict? Jealous husband? Angry Wife? Do you own a small business? More time urban or rural?

I would sell or trade the PT25, it is not suitable for self-defense.

Without any more knowledge of your risk assessments, I would only echo some of the thoughts others have made: the premium hollow-points sold by Federal and Remington and Speer are all pretty good. Double Tap has some loadings which push the Speer Bullets a bit faster, and Cor-Bon has some faster-than-average JHP's as well as loadings of a expanding JHP made of solid copper.

There are also some speciality loads of the market that can be a better choice for certain applications and risk assessments.

Michael Courtney
 
Street use of the 40 shows that almost anything works well. Winchester's Silvertips in the past have performed poorly but have been redesigned so now they work well.
 
I'm kind of funny about "working" ammo, in that I have several set ideas in mind for different calibers. For instance, in .38 +P, I like the good old fashioned +P 158gn LSWHP, which served the FBI and Chicago PD (and God knows how many others) so well for so long. I figure that its history speaks for itself, it's a very defensible choice should that ever become an issue in a legal proceeding, and I shoot it well out of my defensive revolvers. At the same time, in 9mm, I'll buy whichever load I see on the shelves at a reasonable price, with bullet weight generally in the mid-range (more than 115 grn, less than 147 grn), seeking a balance between weight/penetration and impact/velocity. With .45, I could care less who made it, so long as it is a premium hollowpoint weighing 230 grns.
 
Preacherman said:
I think that any premium self-defense ammo from a major manufacturer (i.e. Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, etc. - and note that I said "premium", not cheap practice stuff) is likely to be reasonably effective, given the time and money they put into developing it.
+1.

If you select full-power, name brand ammo that's reliable in your pistol which you can shoot fast and well, you're good to go.

The exception is the .25 . . . this is basically a long-distance icepick for when you can't carry a real gun, and IMHO premium ammo won't help in any material sense. Reliability and shot placement (not easy with these tiny pistols) is what you need.
 
Thanks for the replies

Boy, all the info and so little time and money to use it. But I will sure give it a try. Thanks again for all the replies. I knew I should get a few responses to this question but ya'll have overwhelmed me. Be Safe and have a happy New Year!!!
 
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