Self Defense loads in shotgun
- Thread starter Kentucky
- Start date
- Status
B.D. Turner
Member
My HD shotgun is a Beretta 1200fp 12ga semi auto. This is how I keep it loaded in order first out of the barrel. 2-#6 field loads 3-00 buck and 1-slug. This is my in house load.
The first two shots being #6 field loads will group fist size at room distance. If there is an intruder he will get a double tap. Over penetration is a big issue for me. The first shots being bird shot also makes sense when we have a rattler in the yard.
Three 00 buck will extend the distance and give more penetration if needed.
One slug gives more distance than the 00 buck and ends up as a Hail Mary round.
The first two shots being #6 field loads will group fist size at room distance. If there is an intruder he will get a double tap. Over penetration is a big issue for me. The first shots being bird shot also makes sense when we have a rattler in the yard.
Three 00 buck will extend the distance and give more penetration if needed.
One slug gives more distance than the 00 buck and ends up as a Hail Mary round.
usmcdoc14
Member
#4 buck.
not that it really matters from the distance you will encounter indoors. Pick a size and recoil and practice with it.Remeber you still have to aim a shotgun.
I don't do that whole "slug,shot,slug,shot,shot,shot,slug,slug,slug,shot" whateverthefawk stacking pattern as it serves no point. I am not going to unload a round just because it does not fit the type of target I am aiming at.
I will put the "right" shell in the chamber when the tube is empty
not that it really matters from the distance you will encounter indoors. Pick a size and recoil and practice with it.Remeber you still have to aim a shotgun.
I don't do that whole "slug,shot,slug,shot,shot,shot,slug,slug,slug,shot" whateverthefawk stacking pattern as it serves no point. I am not going to unload a round just because it does not fit the type of target I am aiming at.
I will put the "right" shell in the chamber when the tube is empty
the naked prophet
Member
I'm sure this has been covered thoroughly if you had searched... but what fun would that be for the rest of us?
You need to consider that for the most part, each pellet will make its own wound track at anything farther than contact distance. You want each pellet (or most of them anyway) to penetrate enough to reach a vital organ. Just like a handgun bullet, anything that doesn't penetrate enough to reach the vitals will not cause a physiological stop. They may be stopped by the psychological shock of being shot, but that's not what we should count on.
Birdshot doesn't penetrate enough, generally less than 6 inches in gelatin (skin is the equivalent of 3-4 inches), so you've only got 2-3 inches of penetration in a human target, not enough to reach any vitals especially if it hits an arm or heavy clothing first.
A slug will definitely go clean through, but at that point you may as well use a rifle.
You want to maximize the number of hits that will penetrate to the vitals. So you should choose the smallest shot that will reliably penetrate 12 inches in gelatin. Generally, that's considered to be somewhere between #4 buck and #1 buck. 00 buck is quite popular as well.
slug: single 1 oz projectile
000 buck: eight pellets, each .36 diameter
00 buck: nine pellets, each .33 diameter
1 buck: sixteen pellets, each .30 diameter
4 buck: twenty-seven pellets, each .24 diameter
There are magnum versions of each that have more shot (usually at lower speed).
Personally, I keep three shells of #4 buck followed by two shells of #1 buck. That's the equivalent of three 27-round bursts of .22LR followed by two 16-round bursts of .32 auto.
No, the .22LR isn't particularly effective, but a .22 solid will penetrate through a bad guy (of course, the shot will penetrate less, but still sufficient) and twenty-seven of them should do pretty well.
After that, you should find a brand of the shell you want that patterns best in your shotgun. I've got an 18" Mossberg with a cylinder bore, and certain brands pattern much better than others. Winchester Super-X 00 buck spreads like crazy.
You need to consider that for the most part, each pellet will make its own wound track at anything farther than contact distance. You want each pellet (or most of them anyway) to penetrate enough to reach a vital organ. Just like a handgun bullet, anything that doesn't penetrate enough to reach the vitals will not cause a physiological stop. They may be stopped by the psychological shock of being shot, but that's not what we should count on.
Birdshot doesn't penetrate enough, generally less than 6 inches in gelatin (skin is the equivalent of 3-4 inches), so you've only got 2-3 inches of penetration in a human target, not enough to reach any vitals especially if it hits an arm or heavy clothing first.
A slug will definitely go clean through, but at that point you may as well use a rifle.
You want to maximize the number of hits that will penetrate to the vitals. So you should choose the smallest shot that will reliably penetrate 12 inches in gelatin. Generally, that's considered to be somewhere between #4 buck and #1 buck. 00 buck is quite popular as well.
slug: single 1 oz projectile
000 buck: eight pellets, each .36 diameter
00 buck: nine pellets, each .33 diameter
1 buck: sixteen pellets, each .30 diameter
4 buck: twenty-seven pellets, each .24 diameter
There are magnum versions of each that have more shot (usually at lower speed).
Personally, I keep three shells of #4 buck followed by two shells of #1 buck. That's the equivalent of three 27-round bursts of .22LR followed by two 16-round bursts of .32 auto.
No, the .22LR isn't particularly effective, but a .22 solid will penetrate through a bad guy (of course, the shot will penetrate less, but still sufficient) and twenty-seven of them should do pretty well.
After that, you should find a brand of the shell you want that patterns best in your shotgun. I've got an 18" Mossberg with a cylinder bore, and certain brands pattern much better than others. Winchester Super-X 00 buck spreads like crazy.
Glockfan.45
member
I keep my 870 loaded with 8 rounds of 3" 00buck. If a bad guy makes it past that then God must want me dead.
8 rounds of 00 buck and more lying around. And a bayonet...
I don't get what you'd need a slug for indoors. Sure, it'll kill the BG deader than heck. But at that range it'll probably go through him and hit something else, and what happens if you miss? Crikey. At least buckshot'll be stopped by a brick wall... I don't remember if it's been Box o' Truthed, but I've seen slugs blow up rocks and keep going, punch neat holes in shovel blades, and drill through a pile of 2x4's.
I can't think of much I'd be shooting at that's "too far away" for buckshot in an HD scenario. Fantasies of plugging more incoming whoevers, picking off getaway (or ingress) cars, or whatever... Unlikely, and bad voodoo. And I have a rifle for that anyway. It sits right next to the shotgun.
I don't get what you'd need a slug for indoors. Sure, it'll kill the BG deader than heck. But at that range it'll probably go through him and hit something else, and what happens if you miss? Crikey. At least buckshot'll be stopped by a brick wall... I don't remember if it's been Box o' Truthed, but I've seen slugs blow up rocks and keep going, punch neat holes in shovel blades, and drill through a pile of 2x4's.
I can't think of much I'd be shooting at that's "too far away" for buckshot in an HD scenario. Fantasies of plugging more incoming whoevers, picking off getaway (or ingress) cars, or whatever... Unlikely, and bad voodoo. And I have a rifle for that anyway. It sits right next to the shotgun.
Loaded with #4's (not buck). I've seen what it'll do to a coyote's face at 20 feet. I can't quite understand the slugs following the first 2 shot rounds. You're increasing the effective range of the gun as you shoot up your rounds. If your intruder is leaving (increasing range), you best not shoot him in the back. Won't look good whether he deserves it or not. Just my opinion.
pluvo
Member
I don't know how well 00 buck performs against armor, but I'm sure that a slug (even if it doesn't penetrate) would pretty much gelatinize a 'soft' target.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
00 buck in the magazine, slugs in the Sidesaddle if needed. 'Candy cane' loading (or whatever else you want to call it) is a bad idea- you need to know for sure what's coming out of the muzzle when you pull the trigger, and with alternating loads in the magazine it's hard to keep track under pressure.
So says Louis Awerbuck anyway, and then he proceeds to prove it in class. Of course, he also says he's not smart enough to keep up with both slugs and buckshot, so he only uses slugs...
lpl/nc
So says Louis Awerbuck anyway, and then he proceeds to prove it in class. Of course, he also says he's not smart enough to keep up with both slugs and buckshot, so he only uses slugs...
lpl/nc
I use the Remington low recoil OO buck with 8 pellets. It patterns well out to 35-40 yards while full power buck donuts after about 15-20 yards. It will keep all eight pellets on a man size tratget at 25 yards. Some will argue against the lower velocity (about 1100 fps vs 1300 fps for full power). I would think that virtually all targets if hit by the low recoil would swear it was travelling 1300fps.
B.D. Turner
Member
Having investigated several shootings at room distance I can tell you that it is sometimes hard to tell what the person was shot with without an x ray. Either buck or bird shot will work up close. Self defense shootings are going to be close most are from 3 to 7 feet. Some SWAT teams use #4 buck. While #4 is good for room distance shots it was of no use in the North Hollywood bank robbery where slugs could have excelled.
Me neither.
My thought there was that there may be a case where the BG ducks behind the island in the kitchen, an interior partition, or the couch the slugs might come in handy for extra penetration. I know in the heat of the moment I am not going to be able to keep up with which is in the chamber, but I figure I would probably be firing fast anyhow. If what I need aint in the batters box it ought to be on deck. May be a bad idea though. Sounds like most folks stick with buck, I might need to consider doing that as well.Thats why I posed the question!
GoRon
Member
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I am not going to unload a round just because it does not fit the type of target I am aiming at.
=========================
Hmm. Hope you never have to take a shot when a loved one or some other innocent innocent is in close proximity to the target then. Launching a swarm of buckshot is kind of a 'to whom it may concern' deal, even at relatively close range. I get the feeling a certain number if folks have never shot their HD loads on paper, else they would know just how much their shotgun is actually a scattergun. Even the wad from a load of buckshot can cause injury at a surprising distance- if it'll penetrate a cardboard IPSC target, it can put out an eye or worse.
If that 'not gonna dump a live round' approach is true then there's an awful lot of students in an awful lot of shotgun classes out there who are wasting their time learning 'select slug' drills. And an awful lot of good instructors are wasting time teaching them.
You might want to re-think that one... most professionals call the shotgun 'a thinking person's weapon.' The idea that you can turn off your brain if you use a shotgun for HD is as much a part of shotgun mythology as as not having to aim it to clear a room.
lpl/nc
=========================
Hmm. Hope you never have to take a shot when a loved one or some other innocent innocent is in close proximity to the target then. Launching a swarm of buckshot is kind of a 'to whom it may concern' deal, even at relatively close range. I get the feeling a certain number if folks have never shot their HD loads on paper, else they would know just how much their shotgun is actually a scattergun. Even the wad from a load of buckshot can cause injury at a surprising distance- if it'll penetrate a cardboard IPSC target, it can put out an eye or worse.
If that 'not gonna dump a live round' approach is true then there's an awful lot of students in an awful lot of shotgun classes out there who are wasting their time learning 'select slug' drills. And an awful lot of good instructors are wasting time teaching them.
You might want to re-think that one... most professionals call the shotgun 'a thinking person's weapon.' The idea that you can turn off your brain if you use a shotgun for HD is as much a part of shotgun mythology as as not having to aim it to clear a room.
lpl/nc
the naked prophet
Member
I doubt that a plastic shot cup or wad could cause any injury beyond 10 feet. When I was testing my HD shotgun loads on Kraft paper (with a cardboard stand) the shot cups would routinely penetrate halfway through the first layer of standard corrugated cardboard, and stop against the second layer (my stand is made of two layers on top of each other). I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't even break the skin. Put out an eye, maybe, but I'd rather be hit in the eye with that shot cup than with a standard low-velocity BB from a kid's air pistol.
#1 buck has the highest stopping power, it fights the most lead that will penetrate 12" into the same space. You can do the numbers and find it gives more energy per shot than other buckshot loads as well. That said someone wearing body armor need a slug or even better a solid pointy sabot made of something besides lead if your relying on a shotgun.
Also all this talk of equal to this or that round mentioned above is only taking into consideration the diameter of the round pellet not its velocity and mass in comparison to the round your citing. I had a chart and I seem to recall 00 buck being closer in ballistics to 9 .22 than to any pistol round near the .33 diameter of the pellet. Also keep in mind the different shape and its effect on penetration etc. The benefit of a shotgun is the number of rounds, not the individual power of each. The damage is caused be something of low velocity creating holes, not stopping power of the pellets. So you want as many as possible without losing reliable penetration. #1 mathmaticly adds up the best, and some like Swat like #4 even better for the same reason, more holes per shot without given up much penetration. However the smaller the pellet the more effective barriers and armor is against them. This is a good thing for your neighbors, but also a bad thing if your attacker has on leather or lots of clothing and even worse if they have on body armor. For that you need pointed hard large mass rounds. However you will find the largest selection in 00 buck because for police applications it is the most widely used. It penetrates to standard and has enough pellets to be decisive but not so many that several are missing as well as hitting a target from medium range. They want the most damage with the least possible liability at distances greater than home defense. The smaller the pellet the more quickly it loses energy over a given distance. However the actual size of all the wound channels combined is less with 00 buck.
I see it another way as well. Birdshot has a hamburger effect but only penetrates a short distance. Large buckshot loses the hamburger effect but penetrates deeper than you need. If you can retain the hamburger effect and penetrate deep enough you have the best of both worlds in terms of instant incapacitation. Organs turned into hamburger is a lot more decisive than a couple holes in them.
Oh and as a side note, contact distances with whatever rounds deliver a massive punch. I know 7-8birdshot from 5 feet away will blow 2x4s in half, but from 15-20 feet they just pepper them. While sintered rounds or powdered lead essentialy is used to blow open doors from contact distance but would do almost nothing from more than a few feet (that lead dust can't be good for you). So I think even birdshot would blow an arm off at close range or do similar to another hard surface like ribs.
Also all this talk of equal to this or that round mentioned above is only taking into consideration the diameter of the round pellet not its velocity and mass in comparison to the round your citing. I had a chart and I seem to recall 00 buck being closer in ballistics to 9 .22 than to any pistol round near the .33 diameter of the pellet. Also keep in mind the different shape and its effect on penetration etc. The benefit of a shotgun is the number of rounds, not the individual power of each. The damage is caused be something of low velocity creating holes, not stopping power of the pellets. So you want as many as possible without losing reliable penetration. #1 mathmaticly adds up the best, and some like Swat like #4 even better for the same reason, more holes per shot without given up much penetration. However the smaller the pellet the more effective barriers and armor is against them. This is a good thing for your neighbors, but also a bad thing if your attacker has on leather or lots of clothing and even worse if they have on body armor. For that you need pointed hard large mass rounds. However you will find the largest selection in 00 buck because for police applications it is the most widely used. It penetrates to standard and has enough pellets to be decisive but not so many that several are missing as well as hitting a target from medium range. They want the most damage with the least possible liability at distances greater than home defense. The smaller the pellet the more quickly it loses energy over a given distance. However the actual size of all the wound channels combined is less with 00 buck.
I see it another way as well. Birdshot has a hamburger effect but only penetrates a short distance. Large buckshot loses the hamburger effect but penetrates deeper than you need. If you can retain the hamburger effect and penetrate deep enough you have the best of both worlds in terms of instant incapacitation. Organs turned into hamburger is a lot more decisive than a couple holes in them.
Oh and as a side note, contact distances with whatever rounds deliver a massive punch. I know 7-8birdshot from 5 feet away will blow 2x4s in half, but from 15-20 feet they just pepper them. While sintered rounds or powdered lead essentialy is used to blow open doors from contact distance but would do almost nothing from more than a few feet (that lead dust can't be good for you). So I think even birdshot would blow an arm off at close range or do similar to another hard surface like ribs.
sacp81170a
Member
From The International Wound Ballistics Association:
"12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.
Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.
Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.
If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.
Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not."
One of the reasons we carry 00 buck for LE applications is that, in some cases, we need the extra penetration it provides, i.e. through a car door, window, or windshield. I have #1 buck in the Mossberg I keep by the bed.
"12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.
Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.
Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.
If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.
Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not."
One of the reasons we carry 00 buck for LE applications is that, in some cases, we need the extra penetration it provides, i.e. through a car door, window, or windshield. I have #1 buck in the Mossberg I keep by the bed.
reconNinja
Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2005
- Messages
- 14
I have a Mossberg 500 with the 20" barrel and a pistol grip, I keep it unloaded with six 000 buck 3" magnums in the side saddle, because in my experience recoil isn't a problem for me.
However, I'm considering switching to those hollowpoint slugs, I've just kept the 000Bucks because that's what I have right now.
My shotgun has a sling and a Surefire taclight on it, which would help significantly at night, but I think if I had a choice I would use my 9mm for home defense, because I think I could maneuver easier with it, and it holds more ammunition. And because I have no stock on my 12gauge, accuracy would likely be about the same.
Finally, does anyone use rocksalt as a home-defense shotgun load? Granted it's hardly lethal, but does anyone think it would work? I have absolutely no experience with rocksalt, other than what I've seen on tv(perhaps the worst place to get information from but it seems to me that it would provide ample stun factor to a hostile, and it would also reduce the chance of critically wounding an innocent.
Thoughts?
However, I'm considering switching to those hollowpoint slugs, I've just kept the 000Bucks because that's what I have right now.
My shotgun has a sling and a Surefire taclight on it, which would help significantly at night, but I think if I had a choice I would use my 9mm for home defense, because I think I could maneuver easier with it, and it holds more ammunition. And because I have no stock on my 12gauge, accuracy would likely be about the same.
Finally, does anyone use rocksalt as a home-defense shotgun load? Granted it's hardly lethal, but does anyone think it would work? I have absolutely no experience with rocksalt, other than what I've seen on tv(perhaps the worst place to get information from
but it seems to me that it would provide ample stun factor to a hostile, and it would also reduce the chance of critically wounding an innocent. Thoughts?
reconNinja said:Finally, does anyone use rocksalt as a home-defense shotgun load? Granted it's hardly lethal, but does anyone think it would work? I have absolutely no experience with rocksalt, other than what I've seen on tv(perhaps the worst place to get information from
I'm convinced that less-than-lethal ammunition should be avoided in civilian scenarios. If ever faced with a home defense situation, I certainly won't be looking to provide the 'hostile' with ample stun factor...I'll be looking to stop the threat.
my .02.
Oh yeah, and I'd say the internet is at least equal to tv for receiving factual information
reconNinja
Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2005
- Messages
- 14
Douglas - Thanks for your thoughts. I guess I would agree, since pulling the trigger should be a last resort option when non-lethal alternatives have been exhausted or put out of the question.
- Status