Self Defense loads in shotgun

[benelli12]

#4 buck,
I think it's a great median between the 00 or 000bk, and 7 1/2 birdshot.
It also is not that far behind in penetration from 00 bk.

 

[Zoogster]

Finally, does anyone use rocksalt as a home-defense shotgun load? Granted it's hardly lethal, but does anyone think it would work? I have absolutely no experience with rocksalt, other than what I've seen on tv(perhaps the worst place to get information from but it seems to me that it would provide ample stun factor to a hostile, and it would also reduce the chance of critically wounding an innocent.

Ha, rocksalt. There is no way I am putting salt on or into something made of metal that want to last. Yes it would probably stun someone if you were not in a situation that required lethal force to stop a threat, but then it would be illegal to fire a weapon at someone to begin with if lethal force is not justified. The law does not interprete rubber rounds, salt rounds, beanbags and lead rounds any differently. That said someone posing a threat to you will not be reliably stopped by salt that has less mass for penetration than the smallest birdshot. So if you wouldn't trust your life to tiny birdshot you sure shouldn't be willing to trust it to salt.

Yes it might be nice if you could use a ranged weapon that is non lethal to stop someone from stealing something, but legaly you cannot. For that you must be physical and up close and personal to be legal. Only Hollywood and old stories in a world not full of lawsuits use rocksalt to shoot at tresspassers far away. In the real world you shoot only if in danger, and only something that will stop a perp from taking that gun away and making sure the next round it fires is more definitive. A gun is not an ideal weapon for non lethal use.

 

[usmcdoc14]

Hmm. Hope you never have to take a shot when a loved one or some other innocent innocent is in close proximity to the target then. Launching a swarm of buckshot is kind of a 'to whom it may concern' deal, even at relatively close range. I get the feeling a certain number if folks have never shot their HD loads on paper, else they would know just how much their shotgun is actually a scattergun.

I can "aim" a shotgun and I hope most others in this thread can as well. I am also pretty sure that unless an "innocent" is directly in my like of fire then I will put all of my "swarm" into a man sized target from 10 feet away (the longest strait line shot in my home)

If that 'not gonna dump a live round' approach is true then there's an awful lot of students in an awful lot of shotgun classes out there who are wasting their time learning 'select slug' drills. And an awful lot of good instructors are wasting time teaching them.

there is a difference between select loading and alternating rounds in the magazine and trying to remember what the heck you loaded and in what order.
and you know it.

The shotgun by the bed has #4 buck in it. The loading bag next to it has #4 buck in it. Simple, effective and nothing to get confused about in a high stress situation.

He is not breaching doors or taking down a heavy.
He is laying lead to kill or drive away someone trying to hurt him/his + simple rounds, simple weapon, gross motor skills = staying alive.

 

[sacp81170a]

Finally, does anyone use rocksalt as a home-defense shotgun load?

The guys at the Box o' Truth tested this one:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

Rock salt barely penetrated cardboard until they were about 4 feet away from the target. If you're that up close and personal, why not just use a real defense load? At that point, you want the bad guy to stop now.

 

[jnormanh]

<<<Yes it might be nice if you could use a ranged weapon that is non lethal to stop someone from stealing something, but legaly you cannot. For that you must be physical and up close and personal to be legal. Only Hollywood and old stories in a world not full of lawsuits use rocksalt to shoot at tresspassers far away. In the real world you shoot only if in danger, and only something that will stop a perp from taking that gun away and making sure the next round it fires is more definitive. A gun is not an ideal weapon for non lethal use.>>>

Ah, that's the whole point, isn't it? If you point a gun, any gun, any load at someone, and pull the trigger, you may as well have it loaded to kill. Slugs, buckshot, .45, 9mm, .38 spl, are all likely to be lethal, esp if you fire more than one.

So, the question is - when do you pull the trigger? It's night, you hear at a noise at a door or window, see a shape in the darkness. Do you blaze away? What if it's your kid sneaking in/out? What if it's a 14 yo perp intent on stealing your TV? How and when do you decide that lethal force is called for?

So, for me, I ask the question - "How likely is it that I'll be faced with needing to use lethal force versus maybe making a mistake?"......I've never known anyone, ever, who has found themselves in a postion where the use of lethal force would have been appropriate. I've also never known anyone who shot their own child, although I've read about several such incidents.

Maybe if you live in the lower 9th ward of New Orleans, or the Watts district in LA, you need a loaded firearm in the house. If you live in rural ND, you certainly don't.

I choose not to have loaded firearms. My choice. I don't wear a parachute when I fly on commercial airlines either.

 

[Clusive]

I keep my shotguns loaded with 00 buck. I also have some 3" #4buck that patterned fairly well and I wouldn't hesitate to use. I have some low recoil 00 buck on order and we'll see how they pattern on the next range trip.

 

[perpster]

Gabriel Suarez' Advice:

From The Tactical Shotgun by Gabriel Suarez (Paladin Press 1996), page 15:

"The best choices here [indoor home defense] are the #7 1/2 or #8 low-base, 7/8-ounce loads . . . Within room combat distances, #7 1/2 and #8 birdshot will strike an adverary as a single mass and generally will not overpenetrate [walls]."

"The same characteristics that make birdshot the best thing since sliced bread for home defense make it a poor choice for general-purpose deployment. Anytime you take the shotgun out of the house, replace the birdshot with buckshot."

 

[Tbu61]

I tend to agree with the #6-#8 shot theories. Basically at ranges less than 20 feet, an ounce of shot is... an ounce of shot.

I fooled around with a few 1-gallon milk containers once, filled them with water and blasted them at about 12 feet. I put a sheet of Plywood about 6 feet behind the containers. One, I shot with #8 chilled lead, the other with 00-buck. Amazingly they both "exploded"!

The Buckshot heavily dented and penetrated the 1/2" ply, the #8 bounced off.

 

[perpster]

Maybe if you live in the lower 9th ward of New Orleans, or the Watts district in LA, you need a loaded firearm in the house. If you live in rural ND, you certainly don't.

"certainly don't"? I wouldn't be so certain. Bad things happen to good people and in good places when least expected. Maybe not often, but all it takes is one time.

BTW, when bad things happen in rural places, it is often not limited to robbery, and is often not discovered for days. The uninvited guests tend to help themselves to more than your personal property. The bad guys are also aware of the rural nature of the area.

I commend you for your confidence, but like the Scout motto says, Be Prepared. As a LEO I can tell you with confidence that when the balloon goes up you may not have the time or fine motor skills to get your firearm and load it for immediate use.

 

[O C]

Shotgun HD Loads

I recently got a Rem 870 with the extended mag. I bought some #4 shot 2 3/4 inch shells ( they were there, so I bought them to see how I would like the gun ) Went to the range and paced off 15 paces ( Longest distance point to point in my house ) Patterned the gun at that distance, at 10 paces and 5 paces. I was shooting at a 1/4" 4'X8' plywood backer with some blueprints stapled to them. At 15 paces all the shot was on the paper, as I got closer, the groups tightned up ( go figure ). Then I mounted a high intensity light on the gun that has a focusable beam and a remote switch that I velcroed to the slide so my left index finger can activate it.I focused the light so that the beam was the same size as the shot pattern at 10 paces, it worked out that the beam went hand in glove with the pattern. Then I marked where the focus was so I could return it to the same place. Now I can turn the light on, and know exactly where the pattern will be at any interior distance. Serves the same function as a laser on a pistol, except that the light WILL blind you at close ranges. Can any of you guys see anything wrong with this setup? I'm new to the shotgun scene, and need advice. Thanks O C

 

[M2 Carbine]

I keep #4 buckshot in my shotguns as much for critters as defense but keep slugs and 00 buckshot handy.

Serves the same function as a laser on a pistol, except that the light WILL blind you at close ranges. Can any of you guys see anything wrong with this setup? I'm new to the shotgun scene, and need advice.

Lately I've been testing a Streamlight laser/light on a Ithaca 37/ pistol grip with very good results out to 30+ yards, using slugs, 00 and #4 buckshot.

It pretty much comes down to, if you can identify the target in low light or darkness out to about 25 yards, quick multible hits with slugs or buckshot is easy.



#4 and 00 buckshot at 17 yards.
Slugs in the low target and in BG's blue jeans, from 26 yards.
Shot from the hip using the Streamlight laser.

 

[Robo_Railer]

I've never known anyone, ever, who has found themselves in a postion where the use of lethal force would have been appropriate.

Fine, but that doesn't mean it's never happened to anyone you don't know. If you've never seen the NRA's The Armed Citizen column, every month usually contains several examples of someone defending their home against an armed/drug-crazed (often both) intruder. Many of those who refuse to be victims are elderly, in rural areas, and sometimes don't have to fire a shot. Sometimes it only takes one shot.
Here's an example that's not from N.O. or L.A.:
Bangor Daily News, Bangor, ME, 06/15/05
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2005
Thanks to his trusty .22 rifle, it took less than 10 minutes for a Waldo County, Maine, man to rid his home of intruders. The man and his wife, both in their 70s, were awakened at 6:30 a.m. when their front door was smashed open. The intruders -- at least two of them -- blindfolded the woman and left her in the living room. They bound her husband's feet to the footboard of his bed and threw a pillowcase over his face. The home-invaders repeatedly asked the couple "where the stuff was," said Maine State Police Detective David Tripp. Exactly what 'stuff' they were looking for was unclear, but police speculate they may have been looking for drugs. While the intruders were elsewhere in the house, the man freed himself and retrieved a .22-cal. rifle kept by the side of his bed. When one intruder returned to the room, the man fired a shot at him, hitting the bedroom wall. "They fled the residence," said Tripp. It was the fourth home invasion reported in Waldo County in the past year.

I doubt very much that anyone discussing this subject wants to be in such a position, but if it ever happened, we'd like to deal with it. I'd also bet that anyone else in this discussion is not the type to "blaze away" at "a shape in the darkness." Anyone without a light mounted on the shotgun and some training and practice behind them probably should leave it unloaded.
Unless the vinyl siding has been replaced on a certain house where I once lived, I can still point out the bullethole left by a couple of mooks driving past the house. They were apparently trying to "send a message" about my brother's testimony regarding their purchase of the gasoline that they used when they tried to set another police officer's house on fire. The knowledge of what could've happened to them if they had tried to come inside our house while armed may be what kept them at the distance they chose.
I'm not planning to have anything catch fire in my house, but we have smoke detectors and several extinguishers. We don't have any signs that say "Attention burglars: take whatever you want, just don't hurt us."

 

[perpster]

Which # bird/game shot for Home Defense (interior)?

I tend to agree with the #6-#8 shot theories. Basically at ranges less than 20 feet, an ounce of shot is... an ounce of shot.

Does anyone have an strong thoughts or opinions on which is best for interior home defense, #6, #7 1/2 or #8?

 

[Liberty4Ever]

M2_Carbine - I thought I recognized that bench! I'm working on a similar setup, only a Mossberg instead of an Ithaca. I've always thought a good tactical light could serve triple duty, especially on a shotgun, by illuminating the target, temporarily blinding the target, and aiming the weapon. The laser would be nice when more accuracy is needed.

Here's my HD shotgun, a Mossberg 590 with a SpecOps recoil reducing stock.



I do not keep a round in the chamber because I prefer not to have a loaded gun stored in the house. I do not use the safety, so my version of the safety is racking the slide to chamber a round. I'm more confident in my ability to rack the slide in the dark, under stress, at a time when I do not want to be fumbling around trying to find the safety. KISS.

It's an 8+1 shotgun, and I don't miss the +1. The first four shells are 00, and I'd expect any home defense situation to have been resolved long before then. If not, the next four rounds are one ounce slugs.

I'm not very concerned about overpenetration, even in a suburban environment. I think overpenetration is a bit of a red herring. I'm more concerned about underpenetration, and tests have repeatedly shown that there are no magic projectiles that can tell the difference between bad guys and good guys behind a couple of layers of drywall. Even in a tense situation, I think I'll have the mental skills to remember family members and shoot accordingly. The problem with "safe" ammunition is, if it doesn't penetrate drywall very well, it won't penetrate a bad guy very well either.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone advocating #1 or #4 shot based on the most square inches of projectiles that will penetrate 12". They're all good solutions. I'm a firm believer in the minimum 12" penetration rule FOR HANDGUNS, which are usually somewhat underpowered to make them small and light enough to carry. With a shotgun, I have a slightly different approach. I want that extra penetration, so I can shoot through two layers of drywall and still have 12" of penetration on the other side. In my opinion, one advantage of a shotgun is there is no such thing as "light cover". If you have a decent idea where some bad guy is hiding in your house, it's game over for the BG.

And for those who take it even farther and recommend #7-#8 birdshot for home defense, I think The Box O' Truth said it best. "Use birdshot for little birds."

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

My HD shotgun is a Saiga-12. I have 3 10rd mags with OO Buck and one 5rd mag with slugs.

Geez Louis! You must be planning on suppressing an armed revolt or something!

I had a chart and I seem to recall 00 buck being closer in ballistics to 9 .22 than to any pistol round near the .33 diameter of the pellet.

No way! 00 has nine .33" diameter pellets travelling at 1300+ fps. That's not only a lot more devastating than nine .22LR, it's also a lot more devastating than nine .32ACP. It's probably closer to nine 9mm+P out of a pistol... all at the same time. The round shot has a poor ballistic coefficient, but you'd have to get out way farther than any home defense range before the ballistics of 00 approaches that of a .22LR.

 

[jnormanh]

<<<<Quote:
I've never known anyone, ever, who has found themselves in a postion where the use of lethal force would have been appropriate.

Fine, but that doesn't mean it's never happened to anyone you don't know. If you've never seen the NRA's The Armed Citizen column, every month usually contains several examples of someone defending their home against an armed/drug-crazed (often both) intruder.>>>>

No doubt the NRA works hard to find articles such as the one you cite. Hardly an objective organization - after all the NRA's purpose is raising money by scaring people. If they couldn't scare people - "The gummint is gonna take your guns" "drug crazed perp is going to invade your home, kill your children and rape your wife" - they wouldn't be able to raise money.

It works the other way too. Here's a newspaper report about a home defense weapon killing a three year old, and the gun owner is a trained police officer, not some amatuer.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl053006jbaccident.39c601c1.html

Neither of these isolated incidents proves anything.

What do the people who actually know, law enforcement agencies, think about loaded guns kept in homes? I'll bet you already know what they think, but somehow the NRA knows better, eh?

One question - Why are you so afraid?

 

[CSA 357]

Winchester mod 12, #4 buckshot thats what my gun shootes best, with impcyl , the shot gun is deadly at close range! *csa*

 

[bpisler]

I keep my 500A loaded with remingtons 00
reduced recoil 12 gauge ammo.I tried 1oz
#6's and at 15 ft the 6's covered the 2'X2'
cardboard target holder,not what i want for
a home defense load.At the same distance
the 00 buck ends up in a 5-6" group,much
better for my needs.

 

[Robo_Railer]

At the same distance the 00 buck ends up in a 5-6" group,much better for my needs.

That sounds pretty effective. I also like the idea of the reduced recoil stuff for all the practicing (and pattern tests) I'll have coming up.
Anyone know of a vendor with a good quantity price on any brand of 2¾" Low Recoil 00 buck?

 

[M2 Carbine]

Here's something to think about.
What are you going to use for a light when both your hands are full of shotgun?
A shotgun mounted light?
Are you going to try and aim using the shotgun bead or are you going to shoot from the hip using the light center as an aiming point?

This is what the BG looks like in the dark in a Streamlight TLR-2 light beam, from 20 feet.
The shot spread from a short no choke shotgun will be about 5-7 inches.
Without aiming, can you tell where the shot is going to hit in this light beam?



This is the same Streamlight with the laser turned on.
(for some reason the camera sees the small Red laser as a big white dot with a red outer ring)
If need be, even using 00 or #4 buckshot, in an outrageous situation as this the laser dot could be aimed at the BG's left ear and take off the left side of his head without touching the hostage.

Just something to think about.

 

[AZLibertarian]

...If need be, even using 00 or #4 buckshot, in an outrageous situation as this the laser dot could be aimed at the BG's left ear and take off the left side of his head without touching the hostage....

I realize you said this was just something to think about, but I don't think I could take this shot. A loved one covering 80% of the bad guy, at night, and you're holding a shotgun. Sure, I might take off the left side of his head as you suggest, but with motion, poor lighting and other real-world issues, I also might pepper both faces with buckshot. If this were me with my shottie, I think I'd wait for the dynamics of the situation to present a better target. Of course, YMMV.

 

[M2 Carbine]

AZLibertarian
I realize you said this was just something to think about, but I don't think I could take this shot. A loved one covering 80% of the bad guy, at night, and you're holding a shotgun. Sure, I might take off the left side of his head as you suggest, but with motion, poor lighting and other real-world issues, I also might pepper both faces with buckshot. If this were me with my shottie, I think I'd wait for the dynamics of the situation to present a better target. Of course, YMMV.
__________________

I only used the hostage target because it was available but it does bring up the point that there could be times that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
If you don't shoot is the BG going to kill you and all the witnesses (your family) or if you do shoot there's a good chance of hitting the hostage but saving the rest of your family.
I hope none of us ever has to make such a deadly decision.

But "what ifs" are interesting and fun, so I did take the shot.
Same 20 feet. Shooting from the hip with the laser on the BG's ear lobe.
21 count #4 buckshot.


Then I tried a Wolf slug.
I had removed the light and mount. It seems I have to zero the gun again.
I aimed for his nose.

 

[Mark8252]

HD Shotgun Preference

My HD shotgun is a 20 guage Remington 870 Express Youth model.
I use it for practical reasons.
At HD distances a 20 guage works just fine. The youth version gives it a smaller stock and short barrell making it easier to use indoors. At the same time I can use it as a lender to friends who are of a smaller body build such as ladies and teenagers to go trap shooting with me..I have hooked many a new shooter doing just that.
I use it frequently to keep up on its use just in case I really do need to use it in a HD situation. So I will trap shoot with it once or twice a month. Last time I used it i hit 23 out of 25. Not perfect but i think i will do OK if I need it for HD.
For HD I load it with #1. Trap shooting I use the cheapest ammo Walmart sells #9.
I also keep a beater shotgun for rural Colorado camping. Its a Mossberg 12 guage loaded with #1 shot. Makes me feel better when the coyotes get to close and are howling from several directions.

 

[nemoaz]

I fooled around with a few 1-gallon milk containers once, filled them with water and blasted them at about 12 feet... Amazingly they both "exploded"!

But there's more to it than that. Birdshot won't penetrate hardly at all. I've seen a few birdshot wounds and all were completely superficial. (That's not saying that I doubt that some ARE lethal, just that they weren't in my admittedly limited experience.) Large chunks were missing, for sure, and an eye destroyed in one case, but basically you cannot count on birdshot doing the job unless you shoot in the neck or are otherwise lucky enough to strike a large blood vessel that is close to the surface of the skin. It simply isn't going to penetrate the skull with any regularity. I've seen two different botched suicide attempts with birdshot. The results were messy but neither was fatal. I'm not even sure that buckshot would penetrate the skull. I know that .22 is hit or miss and it would seemingly penetrate better than a round shot.

I use #4 buck because I like the better coverage on the pattern, albeit ever so small at HD distances, but I wouldn't feel unprepared with any size of buckshot. If I had to use birdshot, it would be BB or the biggest I could find.

 

[Deathrider1579]

Coming in late sorta on this one so lets see,
We have #4 - 000 buck for home defense, One "IT AINT NEVER GONNA HAPPEN TO ME CAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYONE THAT ITS HAPPENED TO" kinda guy, and a real good bit of food for thought, what about that hostage? Well I am sorry but BG in my house means I am taking the shot, its just something I have thought over before and I am not willing to let someone do bad things to my family its just one of those "line" things I guess I would take the shot.

-DR

 

[Waywatcher]

Hmm. Hope you never have to take a shot when a loved one or some other innocent innocent is in close proximity to the target then. Launching a swarm of buckshot is kind of a 'to whom it may concern' deal, even at relatively close range. I get the feeling a certain number if folks have never shot their HD loads on paper, else they would know just how much their shotgun is actually a scattergun.

I agree, and after patterning some #4 Buck on paper I switched to slugs, Brennekes, to be exact.