M2, The kids would probably be asleep at the time. That's my concern, and that's why for interior situations I'd start with the birdshot, and only get to the buck if the bird didn't stop the situation. If 2 rounds fired of bird doesn't stop it, then the 3rd round isn't going to be bird (it's not going to be slug indoors, either).
Self Defense loads in shotgun
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M2 Carbine
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A few days ago I was shooting some 7.5 birdshot ,with my 20 inch Ithaca, from about 15-20 foot away. It knocked my 30 inch square, 3/8 inch steel plate off it's hanger.
Birdshot penetrates only a few inches and won't penetrate thick clothing. No amount of talking about silhouettes will change that. If the shot is too small to reliably stop a turkey or duck in a hunting scenario, why would anyone consider using it on a crack or methhead in a self defense situation?
I have seen shots with mine own two eyes birdshot wounds to the head at point blank range that did nothing other than make an ugly wound.
If I had nothing but a dove load for my 12g, then I'd grab the .22.
I have seen shots with mine own two eyes birdshot wounds to the head at point blank range that did nothing other than make an ugly wound.
If I had nothing but a dove load for my 12g, then I'd grab the .22.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Perpster, I have some older #2 birdshot loaded as "first ups" in one of my HD shotguns. IMHO, if I was restarting my ammo purchasing, I'd get some Turkey loads or waterfowl loads in anything bigger than #5s. Should cost something under 20 bucks at a big box store. I'd also stick with 2 3/4 inch rounds.
Nemoaz, we get your message. FWIW, I've killed racoons with #8s and it works at very close range. A 40 lb coon isn't a man, but flesh is flesh. A close cop buddy has responded to three different shootings involving close ranges, 7.5 shot and three dead attackers. YMMV -
I'd also stick with 2 3/4 inch rounds.Nemoaz, we get your message. FWIW, I've killed racoons with #8s and it works at very close range. A 40 lb coon isn't a man, but flesh is flesh. A close cop buddy has responded to three different shootings involving close ranges, 7.5 shot and three dead attackers. YMMV -
bpisler
Member
I agree with Al,turkey loads can be usefull
but i would still use a full or turkey choke
to keep the pattern tight.
but i would still use a full or turkey choke
to keep the pattern tight.
556A2
Member
It really boggles my mind that posters on here would recommend anything less than #4 Buckshot. Its not the question of birdshot can kill somebody, its the question of will it stop someone immediately. There are many examples of people being shot with birdshot and just having a nasty wound. The same cannot be said about 00 Buckshot.
Also, with fear of overpenetration, just use a tight choke and pattern your shotgun properly. You have much less chance of overpenetration if you hit your target. Yes, #4-000 Buck will penetrate your walls..... so will a 9mm, .45, .40. 38 Special, 5.56 etc. I always find it comical that people will say "I'll grab my 1911A1 first, and if theres time I'll grab my shotgun loaded with #7.5 birdshot".
I just cannot wrap my mind around not using something very effective over something marginal at best when your life is on the line.
Also, with fear of overpenetration, just use a tight choke and pattern your shotgun properly. You have much less chance of overpenetration if you hit your target. Yes, #4-000 Buck will penetrate your walls..... so will a 9mm, .45, .40. 38 Special, 5.56 etc. I always find it comical that people will say "I'll grab my 1911A1 first, and if theres time I'll grab my shotgun loaded with #7.5 birdshot".
I just cannot wrap my mind around not using something very effective over something marginal at best when your life is on the line.
SilverBullet, I don't know why not wanting to inadvertantly shoot my family would boggle your mind (remember, I said they might well be in the line of fire but behind wall(s) due to the design of my house). My shotguns are cylinder bore and don't have choke threads. I don't actually see your point of using a tight choke/pattern; if the buck goes through the BG and continues on through a wall what difference does it make if the pattern was tight or not, especially in short house interior distances where the wad is just as likely to still be with the shot? If 6, 7 1/8 or even 8 birdshot will stop the situation with minimal risk to others than I'll try that before shucking in the loaded and ready buck. If not, then as I posted before, I'll do what I have to do. But I'll try the low-risk way before endangering my family unnecassarily. One of the 4 rules of firearms safety is know your target AND what's behind it. I'm certainly not going to toss out that rule when the backstop could be my family.
But it's not just MY life on the line; I have to think of others besides myself. I'm behind the gun; my family may be in front of it so to speak.
M2 Carbine
member
Yesterday I did a little test on 7.5 shot penetration.
A phone book isn't a BG's chest but you get the idea.
I used my 20 inch Ithaca from about 15 feet from the target.
To simulate a heavy coat I folded a old rug to be about a inch thick.
This is the deepest any shot penetrated.
Most shot was only half as deep.
A nasty wound to be sure.
Would it stop a BG? I don't know. I'm pretty sure it would take all the fight out of me but then I'm not all that tough.
perpster, I think you are protecting your family as best you can under the circumstances but I'd be mentally prepaired to shoot at least two quick shots.
A phone book isn't a BG's chest but you get the idea.
I used my 20 inch Ithaca from about 15 feet from the target.
To simulate a heavy coat I folded a old rug to be about a inch thick.
This is the deepest any shot penetrated.
Most shot was only half as deep.
A nasty wound to be sure.
Would it stop a BG? I don't know. I'm pretty sure it would take all the fight out of me but then I'm not all that tough.
perpster, I think you are protecting your family as best you can under the circumstances but I'd be mentally prepaired to shoot at least two quick shots.
556A2
Member
My main reasoning is you may can only get off 1 shot, HD ranges can be closed extremely fast, and there can be more than 1 target. I also advocate the use of slugs on a sidesaddle because you may have to hit a small target. You are going to have to worry about over penetration regardless of anything.
Thats why if you are really worried about over penetration then get some #4 buckshot at the least. It doesn't meet the 12" penetration requirement when it hits flesh. Thats why if you have a tight pattern, you have have less risk of over penetration if you hit your target.
A good thing to also do is have a plan in case you do have a home invasion situation. My wife and I have one so we don't shoot each other, just as we have a plan laid out of the house is on fire.
I'm just giving you food for thought. If you really do have to use a firearm in self-defense, its good to use some adequate for the job. I personally think a target load is not enough for someone that is motivated to kill me or my wife.
Of course, YMMV
Thats why if you are really worried about over penetration then get some #4 buckshot at the least. It doesn't meet the 12" penetration requirement when it hits flesh. Thats why if you have a tight pattern, you have have less risk of over penetration if you hit your target.
A good thing to also do is have a plan in case you do have a home invasion situation. My wife and I have one so we don't shoot each other, just as we have a plan laid out of the house is on fire.
I'm just giving you food for thought. If you really do have to use a firearm in self-defense, its good to use some adequate for the job. I personally think a target load is not enough for someone that is motivated to kill me or my wife.
Of course, YMMV
Roadwild17
Member
Personally I believe turkey loads would be alright for HD. I've never done any test and my shotgun will be loaded with buck (when I pick her up today )
I might get around to do some turkey load test whenever I move into the new house.
)I might get around to do some turkey load test whenever I move into the new house.
M2 Carbine
member
perpster, Something else you might consider, if you haven't already, is the possibility of arranging the kids rooms so they might have some protection form where you most likely might fire.
Bookshelf, furniture, against the wall, etc.
Bookshelf, furniture, against the wall, etc.
Buckshot isn't likely to penetrate through and through. I cannot remember the numbers exactly, but it seems like only OO buck will penetrate more than 12" of ballistic gelatin. Remember that the gelatin doesn't have clothing or bones.
You are pretty risk averse. Maybe you should consider blanks? I'm only kidding a little. No, I'm kidding alot.
The problem is that IF you ever need a weapon and if it comes to pass that you need to fire it in defense of yourself or others, you should not assume that you can fire these two warning shots with basically less than lethal bird shot. In the two seconds it takes to fire the birdshot and get to the real ammo, it may be too late for you or your family. (OK, OK. Not really less than lethal, but somehow the crackheads always survive this stuff, but the innocent all-American kid who has an AD catches one richochet pellet in the external jugular and dies before EMS arrives. Crackhead/methheads are probably the ones that will be kicking your door in, not the all-American kid.)
Seriously, your goals are admirable. We all want a smart ammo that immediately stops bad guys but doesn't harm innocents. But just going to a small birdshot doesn't meet your goal. The problem is that the average wall, drywall, offers almost no resistance. Even little birdshot will penetrate it. See the box-o-truth thing for confirmation of that. With 7 1/2 you will still be running the risk of that any missed shot will penetrate the wall and be into the next room. It's a fact. Conversely, as poor as drywall is at stopping birdshot, other things, like leather, canvas, or cotton clothing, or even flesh and bone, are fairly effective at stopping it. So you end up with birdshot not being an effective load for a human, yet it WILL still penetrate a drywall. A LOSE-LOSE proposition.
Moreover, are you really lessening the odds of stray pellets if you choose a round that ensures you have to pump the entire tube of ammo into the methhead when maybe one round of buckshot would have been more effective?
I do think that if I were to use a birdshot, it would be the largest I could get, BB or 2 lead. Certainly not 7-9. Duck or turkey loads over quail loads for sure.
Just wondering, do you use birshot loads in your pistols also? Why not?
Good post, M2. I would also suggest teaching the kids to hit the floor (yes I know about skipping but you're probably shooting centermass) and get to cover if they here a confrontation. Last post from me, M2. I promise. I know you got my point.
M2 Carbine
member
Everyone has to do what they think will work best for them.
In my case 27 count #4 buckshot is the very smallest SG defense load I use.
My family is only about a foot high, so anything man size is fair game.
Except one of my cats has taught himself how to open the front door, so I can't just blast anything that comes through the front door.
carebear
Member
I think you solved your own problem. When the door opens, blast away. Just keep em above the waist.
M2 Carbine
member
That cat makes me mad but it is funny.
"Mo" has gotten so good at opening the door he doesn't make a sound.
Most of the time I don't know he's in the house until he comes walking down the hall.
Good home security.
MCgunner
Member
Buckshot in both barrels. If the guy is really big, I'll yank both triggers.
carebear
Member
M2,
You could just take away his keys...
You could just take away his keys...
jfernett119
Member
My 870 always has Federal Tactical 9 pellet buckshot in the tube and Hydra-shok slugs in the side saddle. Just in case
koja48
member
Won't happen to me
But it did . . . no other family to worry about but the "light-sleeping" dog . . . caught a BG in the garage . . . he pulled a knife, I pointed the scattergun (00 buck), BG dropped knife & filled pants. Situation successfully defused. He babbled to the deputies 30 minutes later, "That guy had a shotgun!" Worked for me . . . if you live in the boonies, you're all the immediate help you're gonna get.
But it did . . . no other family to worry about but the "light-sleeping" dog . . . caught a BG in the garage . . . he pulled a knife, I pointed the scattergun (00 buck), BG dropped knife & filled pants. Situation successfully defused. He babbled to the deputies 30 minutes later, "That guy had a shotgun!" Worked for me . . . if you live in the boonies, you're all the immediate help you're gonna get.
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