Sell it? or Stash it? A Seller's Market.

[malamuteman1]

thank you

I went into Wally World today to see for myself what all the hoopla is about and see what the situation is like here in New Hampshire..yup shelves were bear by normal standards,I asked for .308 or 7.62 and he had four boxes under the counter of the .308 because I am going to the range for the first time with my brother tommorrow,we have had a rocky past as sometimes brothers do so I am looking forward to the time with him.As the clerk put the boxes in the bag another fellow walked up and waited his turn,I turned to him and offerered him two of the four boxes If that was something he shot,I did that from what I have learned and read on this forum recently, Thank you

 

[GRAYRID3R]

2 sides to this story indeed. When do you draw the line on the profit vs. ethics? I own my own company and have been tempted to gouge when the opportunity presented itself, but I have a conscience. I just can't see taking unfair advantage of a situation either. Like the $10.00 for a pint of water or $6.00 for a gallon of gas or $20.00 for a bag of ice after a hurricaine. That said the ammo shortage is a temporary shortage (I hope) and this is a supply and demand environment. I have less than a hundred rounds of .30 carbine so I don't shoot my M1 Carbine for now. I simply adjust and shoot something else that ammo is still realitivly inexpensive for.

 

[DogOnIt]

Got extra ammo? Go shoot a-bunch-of-it(get in touch with your innerself or some-such) and, do, take a friend.

Sell-it/trade-it... if you can't shoot it.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Sell it while you can... eventually when the bubble bursts, it'll just be paper weights if you don't have a gun in that caliber. Just remember the oil bubble of early 2008... how supposedly China, India, Russia, and other booming economies are using it all and we are running out, and get it while you can. And holy crap $150/barrel.

Didn't last long.


...

 

[TRGRHPY]

The kind of thing that is going on right now is exactly why monopolies are illegal. In this situation we don't have one company doing it. What we have is a certain group of people who are inserting themselves into the chain to take advantage of an already bad situation. You can have an opinion about whether it is right or wrong, but it is, in fact, creating an inflated case of high prices. These people are stepping into a market where the supply is very low. They are buying up what little product there is and then reselling at prices that are significantly higher. They are taking what little supply there is from store shelves, not from distributors or manufacturers, and then adding so much to the price that is just unrealistic to purchase. Once they have purchased all of the supply and then resale the product at those inflated prices, they have indeed created an artificially high pricepoint.

This is akin to going to the only convenience store/gas station out in the middle of nowhere and buying up all of the beverages and gas in it and then selling them out in the parking lot for double the original price. Is it legal? Yes. Is it right? No. Do the people have to buy it? No. But they sure want it, and they may even feel that they need it.

The government doesn't have to come in to this market and start taxing the hell out of ammo because we already have seedy individuals doing it for them. I haven't heard a single person support the government taxing ammo but if individuals essentially do the same thing, it's ok. (???) ....as long as it's called capitalism, I guess...

There is a line that can be crossed, and I say that these specific individuals are crossing it.

I am not against capitalism by any means, not at all. I feel it is the best system. But what we have are individuals taking advantage of an already bad situation and making it worse.

I wonder how many new shooters are not getting the practice that they need because of this...especially if they purchased .380...

2 sides to this story indeed. When do you draw the line on the profit vs. ethics?

Exactly. To take it one step further: What would you think if you had someone come in and purchase all of your product and then sit outside your business and try to sell that same product to (what used to be) your customers for twice the price they paid? Does that offend you or do you just sit back and say "well good for him"? This is what is happening.

 

[PT1911]

I just find it somewhat hipocritical for someone to encourage new shooters and gun owners to Join "our" ranks and then hoard ammunition in such a way that it makes it impossible for the new owners and shooters to practice properly. you, (We) make fun of improper shooting technique while contributing to making it impossible for them to get the practice they need...not to mention protect themselves should the opportunity arise... I have a feeling it is just a matter of time before someone is robbed, raped, or killed and it may have been prevented had they been able to get the ammunition they were looking for the day prior.

it wasnt my fault.. I am a capitalist... just doing my part to get myself ahead at the expense of anyone who didnt think of it first... that sort of capitalism makes me want to puke... it is pathetic....

 

[PT1911]

to answer the OP's question.. sell what you cannot use, there is no reason for something to just sit when you dont even have to gun to shoot it... or you could get the gun to match... solves the problem too...

 

[possum]

i say that you sell it to someone that shoots .40 and with the money put that toward buying a reloading set up. i have no trouble finding ammo, i reload and i don't see me running low on ammo anytime soon. i do have over 3k rds of wwb factory that i am holding on too. it is .40 but all of my handguns are .40. why am i holding onto the wwb? for future training courses.

 

[pith43]

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

The kind of thing that is going on right now is exactly why monopolies are illegal. In this situation we don't have one company doing it.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Please look up the word monopoly.

TRGRHPY, I'll ask you point blank...what is your solution?

 

[TRGRHPY]

TRGRHPY, I'll ask you point blank...what is your solution?

Nice job of skirting around my other point(s) and not addressing them.
I know what a monopoly is, and apparently you're oblivious to the point that i'm making. Either way, you're bound to get a headache from slamming your head into a wall.

You can't legislate morality in this situation, plain and simple. I don't think that there is anything that can be done without legislating it, and that is definitely not the way to go. This is a moral/ethical issue, and like common sense, people will either excercise it or not. The only thing that I can do is what I'm currently doing, and that is to not purchase from them and encourage others to do the same.

I find it funny that the same people who advocate for these guys are also the first ones to say that they don't purchase from them either. If they were doing the right thing then there wouldn't be an issue with purchasing from them, would there?

 

[geophysicishooter]

No, I think his point is very precise. the "they" you rail on is "us". "we" are buying up the ammo. otherwisse the shelves wouldn't be bare.

I'm not going out and ferritting out some secret ammo faerie and turning around and selling it for profit. But even someone doing that is doing something of a service by distributing to others that might not otherwise have an opportunity to. Isn't his time and effort, not to mention gas worth something. Isn't my lugging this crap around from one apartment to the next and storing it all this time worth something if I can get it?

there is no "they". It's everyone that got to the shop to find four boxes of ammo left and split it with the guy behind him. Are they supposed to seek out someone with whom to share their paultry cache of ammo. is there supposed to be some ammo donation box where you can drop a few rounds in for the needy? should there be two donation trays passed around at church, one for foldin' money and the other for a tenth of your last ammo purchase?

I mean. really. what other options is there? I can't stuff dollar bills into my barrels and make bullets come out the working end. So if I want to shoot and ensure my capacity to shoot I have to put cash on the barrelhead when I get the chance or face the fact that it's one that passed me by. I can't answer for all the other fellas that weren't in line with me at the time to do the same.

I've never bought ammo and left an empty shelf behind me. what else do you want? What can I say? If it's that important, you'll sell your cloak for a box of ammo..

 

[pith43]

I know what a monopoly is

I wouldn't bring the term monopoly anywhere near this situation; millions of buyers buying from thousands of sellers.

You can't legislate morality in this situation, plain and simple

I couldn't possibly agree with you more.

I don't think that there is anything that can be done without legislating it

That only leaves three options that I can think of.

1) Boycott: please do... it leaves more guns/ammo for those that choose to buy (like me )

2)Have a nice cathartic bitch fest for the duration.

3)Buy or don't buy.. but don't loose sleep because you can't control millions of buyers. That is the problem isn't it? These "gougers" wouldn't be selling anything if people weren't buying would they?


I like #3

 

[Flyboy]

Exactly. To take it one step further: What would you think if you had someone come in and purchase all of your product and then sit outside your business and try to sell that same product to (what used to be) your customers for twice the price they paid? Does that offend you or do you just sit back and say "well good for him"? This is what is happening.

Nope. I say "good for me!" If he buys out my entire inventory at my asking price, I just did well. I'm now faced with a decision: A) sell the next batch at my old price, undercutting the competition and turning a profit, or B) sell the next batch at the new price (or just below it) and turn more of a profit.

Where's the downside here?

The guy who just bought me out has done everybody a service. By buying me out, he's freed up my capital to buy more product to sell. He's kept the product in the market, so his ammo plus my next shipment means more ammo for you, the buyer. He's raised prices, discouraging unmotivated buyers and guaranteeing availability to more motivated buyers (if perhaps in a smaller quantity--see the law of diminishing returns). And, by buying me out, he's shown me that the demand exists, so I have a strong incentive to buy a bigger shipment than last time, again increasing supply to you, the buyer.

There's a reason capitalism works. The feedback loops encourage the behaviour desired by the buyers. If the buyers don't like something, they'll stop buying, and the suppliers will reduce the supply. If the buyers want more of something, the increased prices will encourage suppliers to provide more of it.

Further, by buying up the available ammunition and offering it for resale, the speculator provides a service. The higher price causes a reduction in quantity demanded (different concept than demand). He has a fixed quantity available, so if the buyers reduce their quantity demanded, he can service more buyers. By having a greater quantity on hand (due to the reduced quantity demanded), he provides utility of time: you can get a box of ammo now rather than waiting two weeks for the next shipment at Wal*Mart. This is basic marketing (seriously basic--the first or second chapter in my Intro to Marketing textbook).

Will you always be able to get a case of ammo for the price you paid a year ago? Of course not. But (absent government intervention, which we've not seen so far) you will always be able to get some ammo.

And that's a good thing.

 

[DAdams]

At Any Price

I really don't care, I have lots of money so I'm buying. Remember the Furry Freak Brothers?

 

[TRGRHPY]

I'm not going out and ferritting out some secret ammo faerie and turning around and selling it for profit. But even someone doing that is doing something of a service by distributing to others that might not otherwise have an opportunity to.

And that is exactly the problem...or at least a part of it. (The main problem isn't really a problem, it's a blessing really. People are waking up and excercising their 2a rights.) BUT they don't need someone stepping in front of them at the store and buying up the ammo and then trying to re-sell it to them at a higher price. If they just leave it be, the people wouldn't have to go to gunshows to find the ammo, and susequently end up paying double the price.


Capitalism isn't an "all or nothing" concept. Nowhere have I said that because of this one issue that the whole thing or even parts of it are invalid. What I'm saying is that there are people who are taking advantage of a bad situation. I don't think these people are morally/ethically whole. They're not doing anything illegal, and neither am I by pointing out that what they're doing is just adding more problems to an already existing situation.

I'm tired of trying to find new ways to say the same thing so that some people understand. You keep trying to say that I feel that redistribution of ammo is the way to go, or something like that. Never said anything like that, never even hinted at anything like that. I never said that anyone should share 4 boxes of ammo, or anything like that, and never hinted at anything like that either. I didn't say anything about purchasing ammo and having to share it or give it away.

Tell me if this would piss you off, or if you'd just say "well, thats capitalism": You go into a store to buy a widget that you need. It's the only place in town that sells the widgets and they're running low. Some guy steps in front of you and tells the clerk that he wants all of them and leaves none behind. He pays for them, and then afterwards turns to you and says "hey, meet me in the parking lot and I'll sell them to you." ...and he wants twice what he just paid 5 minutes prior. If you're telling me that situation makes sense to you and you don't find that ethically wrong, then you're either lying to continue a conversation or you're lying to yourself that you wouldn't find that irritating.

Now, if the guy in the store just simply is purchasing the widgets and doesn't plan on reselling them, then who cares because he's not creating a situation in which the price of the widget is being inflated.



-OR-


You decide to take your wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/pet/whatever out to a nice dinner...the only place that makes good veal marsala (whatever), and the guy next to you hears you mention "the veal", and he tells the server that he wants to buy all the veal in the place and that if anyone wants it, they have to fork over their money to him and the dinner will cost twice the amount. You wouldn't find that irritating? Not illegal....still capitalism...but not right either.

 

[geophysicishooter]

I don't want to go round and round (pardon the pun) with you about this..

it's like the kids say these days.. don't hate the player..

 

[Flyboy]

If you're telling me that situation makes sense to you and you don't find that ethically wrong, then you're either lying to continue a conversation or you're lying to yourself that you wouldn't find that irritating.

Or--just maybe--I don't consider it "ethically wrong" for somebody to annoy me.

Let's turn this on its ear: there are two guys in line ahead of me. The first is your speculator. The second needs a widget, and decides to buy an extra just in case. Either way, there's nothing on the shelf when I get there.

The first guy has done me good, by ensuring that widgets are available to me. He's added some markup to account for his time and trouble, but at least I can get my widgets at some price. That's a better situation for me than if the second guy had bought them all up with intent to use them.

Am I going to be annoyed that my price just went up? Yeah, a little. But that doesn't mean it's wrong. If anything, it'll encourage me to get there a little bit earlier next time so I can be the one who ensures liquidity in the market.

Now, if the guy in the store just simply is purchasing the widgets and doesn't plan on reselling them, then who cares because he's not creating a situation in which the price of the widget is being inflated.

Yes, he is inflating the price. When he buys the widgets--whether he sells them or keeps them--the quantity available declines. That means price is going to go up. If anything, reselling them is better than using them because it puts supply back on the market. Assuming it's not the last shipment of ammunition ever, the store will get more. The store will then be his competition (and he the store's). If the ammo disappeared from the market (the buyer shot it all), the store would be free to raise its prices as high as it wanted; when he offers the ammo for resale, the store is limited in how high the price can go.

Bottom line: non-coercive participation in a free market is not ethically wrong, and won't be no matter how you try to craft the scenario.

 

[gyp_c2]

whoa!

...You may wanna' hold onto it...
There's always a good chance of someone dropping a .40 in front of you for trade you hadn't expected...It's enough to use in a pinch and you won't lose anything by holding it.
If you already have a trade in mind, that's different. Gofer' it...g

 

[PT1911]

I want it all.. every gun, every cartrige, every case of primers, hell, I wont even reload, i just want it all so no one else can have it... then I will hide behind the idea of capitalism saying I will sell it one day to make a profit... you know what would make it even better... if I could advocate for ammending the 2A, that way, I could just hide the guns, ammo, and accessories I have and sell them little by little to anyone willing to pay the highest price... that is CAPITALISM at its best isnt it? Whatever is best for me no matter who suffers. Why should I worry about anyone elses rights as long as it puts money in my pocket...

THIS IS WHAT I HEAR BEING SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THIS THREAD... ALL IN THE SPIRIT OF "CAPITALISM"

EXTREMELY HIPOCRITICAL!!!!!

 

[Rmfcasey]

What we really need is for the obamessiah to step in and appoint an Ammoczar to decide who gets what as far as ammo goes. I sat on components for 20 yrs and several moves, is it ethical for me to start reloading again and to start shooting more than I shot before. Maybe I should be forced to sell all my supplies for what I paid in 1987?

 

[Flyboy]

PT1911, you're missing the point. Again.

If I cornered the market on ammo, and charged out the nose for it, then the going price would be high. That high price would encourage more suppliers to enter the market, increasing supply. The additional supply would help to meet demand, and the supplier would be my competitor, forcing me to lower my prices (or taking all of my business away from me). Either way, natural market actions would correct the situation.

You have no right to ammo--or anything else--at any particular price. Your screed against the free market typifies the economic ignorance running rampant in this country. That same ignorance is a big part of why our economy is in the tank right now.

Economics ought to be a required subject to graduate high school.

 

[Rmfcasey]

A little education on economics should be required to post on gun boards. I suggest Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. A great book should be available at your library if you know where that is.
Rmfcasey

 

[PT1911]

I fully understand cycles of economics, however, there is no room for increasing production if everyone is working at maximum capacity already... The current demand cannot be met because of a mix of fear, panic, and greed; consequently, when one person increases prices, the other greedy people realize they can do the same and people buy all they can find recognizing this..... then, retailers and wholesalers realize the demand isn't going anywhere and increase the price even more knowing the aforementioned fear, panic, and greed will result in people paying whatever the price they set..... the days of decreasing prices to match others have long gone.... at least where guns and ammunition are concerned...

 

[SCBradley]

Queue sad music:

For only 50 cents a day, you too can make sure shooters like little PT1911 here never have to go without ammo again.

You'll receive up to date photographs and progress reports on a quarterly basis showing how the ammo you've paid for is improving your shooter's life.

So call the Disadvantaged Shooter's Fund Today. You'll be glad you did.

 

[dacavasi]

So, the OP really needs advice on this???