Selling Rifles To People Out-Of-State in a FTF. Potential Felon/ATF Asking For My Gun

[Colonel]

Several years ago, my father (now deceased) gave (as a gift) his hunting rifle to my brother, who lived in a different state than my father.

The transfer did not go through an FFL. My brother simply took the gun home with him, as luggage, on the airplane after visiting Dad.

(The rifle had never been "registered," per se, other than in the 4473 back around 1970.)

Did Dad unknowingly commit a crime? Did my brother?

And if so, what can be done now to prevent my brother from running afoul of the law?

In an alternate Universe:

What if, after my father's death, my brother (who lived in a different state than my father) had taken possession of the firearm under the terms of our late father's will (all possessions to be divided equally among the survivors)?

In still another alternate Universe:

What if Dad had given my brother the rifle when they both lived in the same state?

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am sometimes astounded at some of the benign, innocent things that are considered "illegal"...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I am sometimes astounded at some of the benign, innocent things that are considered "illegal"...

I won't go into a discussion of the details of the situations you outline. However, it is true that many seemingly benign acts can in fact actually be illegal and put one in jeopardy of suffering severe adverse consequences. It is therefore important to know and understand the law, especially when dealing with things which are heavily regulated, like guns.

 

[chhodge69]

if a man came up to me and wanted to by my rifle and I sold it to him it's all perfectly legal even if that man then drove back to his residence across the state line. I had no knowledge he was from out of state and no duty to inquire. Therefore, I lacked the culpable mental state to have committed the crime.

I'm pretty sure that unknowingly committing a felony, ESPECIALLY if it's through willful ignorance, is still a felony.

as they (whoever they are) say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

 

[Evergreen]

I appreciate all the information people have given me. Now, I feel quite educated about the situation and won't struggle so much next time.

Did Dad unknowingly commit a crime? Did my brother?

And if so, what can be done now to prevent my brother from running afoul of the law?

No, I think there was no law broken. Even, according to the ATF site, that you can receive a gun, as long as no business transaction (sale) takes place. I think from reading the ATF site, that gifts are excluded from this law. Although, I am not a legal expert and could be wrong.

Well, with any sale, I will need to see identification. I want as much as I can get. Generally, I want a drivers license and a CHL would be nice. It just puts my mind at ease and I include it in a double copy of a bill of sale. If anyone feels uncomfortable with showing me their ID, I understand, and then I would go the FFL route. If they don't like FFL either, then they are out of luck at that point. I make all this information clear on my ads. I don't know all the legality, but there are risks selling guns to people and I want to cover myself in case I do end up selling to a felon or some guy who is about ready to hold up a liquor store, etc. Maybe, other people are fine with no questions asked deals, but I just don't want to put myself in that situation.

Also, as far as knowing where this guy lived, well the 509 area code on his phone and the fact his location on Forum ID said "Eastern WA", kind of gave it away. Also, we chatted on the phone for a while and where he lived came up quite a bit, even without me asking. I highly doubt if this was an ATF sting or something, that I could have said I wasn't aware of where he lived. Also, I don't believe a person who has property in Oregon, can still be considered a resident. I think the law relates to being a resident of a specific state, therefore where your licensed to drive and pay taxes.

 

[aka108]

I do not sell any of my firearms to individuals. I run everything thru my gunsmith. I pay a small commission but can rest assured that any sale from him is run thru the instant check system and that a yellow form is retained in his records.

 

[medalguy]

Evergreen, I think you made the right decision.

Just as an aside, a person does NOT have to OWN property or have a driver's likcense in another state in order to be a resident of that state. Generally (and there are exceptions!) a person can reside in another if he makes a home there, even if he does not own property or pay taxes there. Case in point: someone from say Vermont who lives in Florida in a rental property for half the year can be a resident of either state, depending on where he is actually living at the time.

 

[Bubbles]

Several years ago, my father (now deceased) gave (as a gift) his hunting rifle to my brother, who lived in a different state than my father.

The transfer did not go through an FFL. My brother simply took the gun home with him, as luggage, on the airplane after visiting Dad.

(The rifle had never been "registered," per se, other than in the 4473 back around 1970.)

Did Dad unknowingly commit a crime? Did my brother?

Yes, family relationship does not trump residency requirements. A transfer is a transfer, whether by gift or purchase.

What if, after my father's death, my brother (who lived in a different state than my father) had taken possession of the firearm under the terms of our late father's will (all possessions to be divided equally among the survivors)?

Legal - inheritance transfers are one of the very few exemptions to the "no private party transfers across state lines" law. In this case the executor is not permitted to ship the firearm directly to the heir - the heir must travel to the deceased's state, retrieve the gun, and either ship it to himself or transport it with him to his home state.

What if Dad had given my brother the rifle when they both lived in the same state?

Legal, provided state law doesn't prohibit the transfer (e.g. California)

To the OP - go to the ATF's web site, find your closest field office, and report the guy. He's either a criminal or an informant. Either way I wouldn't deal with him.

 

[CoRoMo]

Why wouldn't he have a CHL?

Few people have them. Few people know about them. Few people want them. He told you why he didn't have one.

A majority of legal gun owners have CHLs...

I don't believe this is at all true. I'd estimate a single digit percentage of gun owners have a license/permit to carry.

...according to the ATF site, that you can receive a gun, as long as no business transaction (sale) takes place.I think from reading the ATF site, that gifts are excluded from this law.

I'd like to see the text on the ATF site that excludes gifts from being an illegal interstate transfer. It is in fact illegal for me to give a gun to a nonresident of my state, regardless of family relation, if that transfer does not go through an FFL. Long gun gifts could be transferred through an FFL in my state, handgun gifts would have to be transferred through an FFL in the receiver's state. No way around it.

 

[MtnCreek]

To the OP - go to the ATF's web site, find your closest field office, and report the guy. He's either a criminal or an informant.

Or he does not know the laws regarding private sales of firearms.

 

[CoRoMo]

...call the ATF and inform them of the situation and ask if they would like to get in on the action and conduct a sting on the guy.

...go to the ATF's .. closest field office, and report the guy. He's either a criminal or an informant.

Eh, yeah, maybe, possibly, at worst the guy is canine excrement. I realize that they buyer claims to have purchased guns out of state FTF, but is that all we have here? He might just be uninformed. Maybe saying this to press the OP to make the sale. At best, the buyer could just be an uninformed gun owner with an interest in keeping his gun collection "off the (bound) books". He may be an honest and upright guy, who is not at all prohibited from owning guns, but who has no real grasp of what he is doing. There is absolutely no call for a sting to send the guy to jail if he's just a simpleton.

If I missed the part of the OP's posts where he was able to witness a blatant and purposeful crime serious enough that all hell should be unleashed upon the guy, I need to re-read everything to find that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I appreciate all the information people have given me. Now, I feel quite educated about the situation and won't struggle so much next time.

Did Dad unknowingly commit a crime? Did my brother?

And if so, what can be done now to prevent my brother from running afoul of the law?..

No, I think there was no law broken. Even, according to the ATF site, that you can receive a gun, as long as no business transaction (sale) takes place. I think from reading the ATF site, that gifts are excluded from this law. Although, I am not a legal expert and could be wrong....

I'm sorry, Evergreen, but I'm afraid that you are wrong. The situation described by Colonel was an interstate transfer. And there is nothing in the federal law that exempts a gift, even between relatives, from the rules applying to interstate transfers. And the transfer does not have to be a business transaction.

In the situation described by Colonel, the father certainly could legally make a gift of a rifle to a son who lives in another State (and presumably the father knows where the son lives). But under the applicable federal law, the transfer would have to be done through an FFL.

So in the situation described by Colonel, federal law was violated because the transfer (gift) did not go through an FFL.

 

[Evergreen]

Didn't realize that interstate gun gifts were illegal. I can see I am wrong now and, once again, thanks for educating me. I am really ignorant about the laws, although I try my best to research at a whim. That is why I made this post and I will say that people here have helped me quite a bit. As I said I wasn't sure, but I could see why they are not.. I personally would use an FFL to transfer a firearm to anyone over state lines, regardless. I am not taking any risks.

There is no way this guy is innocent. Everything about the guy reeks "fraud". He seemed quite clever and intelligent and I think he was trying to take advantage of me. Even the email address he gave me doesn't make sense. The email ends with "surewaytransport.com". But, when I go to surewaytransport.com, the website doesn't exist. Well, it exists, but it looks like an unused website. The email appears spoofed to me. Being a software guy, I know how this can be done. Also, I tried googling the name of his business and it doesn't come up anywhere. Once again, strange. He also claims to be an agent for Sureway Transport in his email, but I am thinking he is not, especially considering the email address is in no way associated with Sureway Transportation. This guy really does seem to be a con-artist. A clever one at that.

I wouldn't mind reporting this guy, although I'm not the kind of person who does that regularly. He constantly was trying to manipulate me to make the sale. Even the reason why he was buying my gun made little sense. I mean I am selling a match-grade, bench rifle and the guy says he wants a gun to shoot cheap, junky ammo from? Why on earth, my gun? Well, just one more strike against the guy. No one factor alone made me pass judgment on him, but rather a combination of factors.

I'm almost positive he is either a felon or ATF agent. Although, if he was an ATF agent he sure was entrapping me by the tactics he was using.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Didn't realize that interstate gifts were illegal....

It's not that gifts are illegal. It's just that a gift is a transfer and must be given in a way that complies with the laws regarding a transfer of a firearm. So, for example --

• I give a gun as a gift to my friend. We're both residents of California. But because under California law all transfers must go through an FFL, I and my friend need to visit an FFL here in California (or I could ship it to a California FFL who he, or I, have arranged with to do the transfer) for the transfer. My friend would need to comply with the usual formalities, i. e., filling out a 4473, etc.
  
  
• I give a gun as a gift to my mother. We are both residents of California. California law makes an exception for intrafamilial gifts (parent/grandparent to or from child/grandchild), and the transfer does not have to go through an FFL. But in the case of a handgun, my mother would have to file a form with the California Department of Justice.
  
  
• I give a gun as a gift to my friend. We're both residents of Arizona. Arizona law permits the transfer of a gun from one resident to another without any formalities, as long as the transferor has no reason to believe that the transferee is prohibited from possessing a gun. So I go to my friend's house and give him the gun, and it's done.
  
  
• I give a gun as a gift to my friend or my mother or my cousin. We're residents of different States. The transfer (gift) must go through an FFL. If it's a handgun, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. Federal law applies in the same way whether the gift is from friend to friend or from one family member to another.

It's not that the gift is illegal, whether intrastate or interstate. The gift is legal. It just must be given in a way that complies with the applicable transfer laws.

 

[GMcBoozer]

One of the LGS around here keeps telling me that the interstate laws applies to FFl's and handguns. They also say that long guns can be sold across state lines. I was almost convinced until I read the BATFE site myself. How can a LGS be wrong about something as basic as who can buy a gun from who? The weird part is that they suggest the FTF rather than coming to them to do a transfer. So they are giving up business because of this belief.

I am so confused.

 

[Sam1911]

Don't be. Listen carefully to what dogtown tom, fiddletown, bubbles, and the others are saying.

Private transfers of any gun are legal only between residents of the same state (IF that state's laws allow them).

A resident of one state can buy (transfer/receive) a rifle or shotgun from a dealer in any other state, if they follow all the laws of both that state and the buyer's state of residence.

A resident of one state cannot buy (transfer/receive) a handgun from anyone, except in his own state.

There is one major exception (transfer via bequest -- if someone has DIED) and a bunch of "what if I didn't know..." grey area stuff you don't have to worry with. None of that applies here.

Why does a dealer give you bad legal advice? Well, it's a bit unexpected, but not terribly unusual. The laws are not very clearly known, (though they should be, by a DEALER!) and aren't at all what most people think they are.

You're getting good advice here.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Note that Federal law expressly prohibits the transfer of a firearm to anyone who is not a resident of your state. Whether or not you are aware of the buyers state of residence is not a factor....it's still a violation of Federal law.

Please post the Federal law that says such? The mere act of selling a firearm to an out of state resident is not illegal. ALL of the elements of the statute must be met to be guilty....

You just posted the law.

The phrase "...knows or has reasonable cause to believe..." would be decided by a judge or jury.

As I posted earlier you can beat the rap, but you don't beat the ride.

I highly recommend that sellers in a FTF check that the buyer has a DL from your state.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Evergreen:

I saw your posts on the Northwest Firearms website. Nice rifle! I was tempted myself but didn't want to deal with the shipping.

Notice on that website that every "For Sale" forum in the classifieds section has a sticky saying "ATTENTION: FACE TO FACE FIREARMS DEALS ACROSS STATE LINES ARE ILLEGAL!". It makes it pretty clear what is legal and what isn't. This is a common problem in WA/OR/ID since there are a lot of people living in border towns. But you do have to be careful. I personally wouldn't do anything that even hints of a slight problem. Better to be safe...

And good luck with the sale! Looks like a good deal to me.

 

[Evergreen]

Thanks 45. If you are interested in it, I would make you a deal that could make up for the shipping.. Just PM me..

You're right about the interstate firearm notice on the NWFA site.. Duhh.. I guess I should have read that, but forgot about it .

Anyway, this guy is a total con-artist/felon and I think reporting him is the best idea as sending me to prison was the least of his concerns. Guys like this do give a bad name to honest and law-abiding gun owners. He is a real scumbag. I can see 100% now that this guy was taking me for a ride and all his information looks fraudulent. I want to prevent others from falling victim to this guy as I feel he is a predator who prowls the boards. I will send his information to mods and maybe they can see what to do to prevent others in OR/WA/ID area from falling victim to this guy. He is not a stupid person, contrary to what some people think here. This guy is slick and knows exactly what he is doing.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Reading the OP, it sounds to me like the buyer volunteered the information that he was from out of state.

I'd have to believe that he was either a felon, a soon to be felon, or an ATF agent.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Did Dad unknowingly commit a crime? Did my brother?

Yes, they did.

And if so, what can be done now to prevent my brother from running afoul of the law?

If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one there, does is make a sound? (translation, shut up about it!)

 

[CoRoMo]

...what can be done now...

Admit that you were only kidding. You were only asking hypothetically. This never actually happened.

Seriously, this happens all the time, all across the country, and there is nothing harmful in these actions. The laws are stupid and I hope to Heaven that they are repealed one day!

 

[Frank Ettin]

....this happens all the time, all across the country, and there is nothing harmful in these actions. ...

Unless one gets caught. In that case he will be very sorry.

...The laws are stupid and I hope to Heaven that they are repealed one day!

That's another matter. Unless they are repealed or tossed out by a court, they are still the law.

 

[Yoda]

There ARE Stings Out There

This all reminds me of an incident on this board, about a year ago. I was discussing the purchase of a Bersa from a co-worker here in Florida who had just been diagnosed with ALS. Out of the blue I get a private message from someone who claimed to reside in NYC. He assured me that he was a good person, and in fact he was a music teacher and his wife was a dancer IIRC (I don't know why being artsy makes you "good," unless you're good at what you do), and that he wanted to buy the gun from the co-worker without any paperwork or FFL involved, so he could bury it for the future (in NYC? Where, in Central Park?).

The whole thing sounded extremely phony. I sent back a note slamming the guy for wanting to involve someone who was in such obvious distress in an illegal scheme, and suggested that the ATF should have better things to do. On reflection, it was probably Bloomberg trying out some new scam.

We do ourselves more good by knowning the laws and legally changing the ones we don't like, vice not knowing them or ignoring them until caught.

(For those who were involved in the string of messages, Johann expired about five months after diagnosis. She went quick, but with dignity. Although she had separated from the Navy about two years before, the VA determined that it was service connected, and they provided extremely good AND LOVING care. The local chapter of the ALS society was also a blessing.)

- - - Yoda

 

[garymc]

A 1970 illegal transaction between family members is long past the statute of limitations.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Always listen to your gut.

If it feels funny.
Walk away

AFS