Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Semiauto Carbine Poll

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Isher, Dec 28, 2009.

?

Which of these three would you choose for best ergonomics, reliability, accuracy

  1. CZ VZ58

    21 vote(s)
    12.0%
  2. AK Variants

    30 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. AR Variants

    124 vote(s)
    70.9%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Isher

    Isher Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    600
    All -

    OK, three common but very dissimilar firearms when you get right down to it. Two you have heard about till you are probably sick to death of it. AR variants. AK variants. Then there's the redhaired stepchild the Czech VZ58. The VZ, as its name implies, hit the assembly lines in 1958 and I think I read somewhere that slightly over a million of them are out in the world somewhere. Personally, I think they are a superior weapon. I'm just curious to see what will show up in a poll of the combination of the three, rather than the two.

    isher
     
  2. Almond27

    Almond27 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    418
    Location:
    Tennessee
    I chose AR because the AK is reliable to boot but ergonomics and accuracy are generally poor. I'd still own an AK over an AR though just my own personal preference.
     
  3. happygeek

    happygeek Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,527
    Location:
    OCONUS
    To be honest, I chose the AR because it's the only one I have any experience with. I did field strip an AK once, and want to buy one eventually just to have one, and because the ammo is cheap.
     
  4. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    5,356
    Location:
    Oregon
    I chose AR because the poll had the words "accuracy" and "ergonomics" thrown in with reliability. To be fair I haven't shot or held a VZ58, but aren't they basically the same as an AK in your 3 categories?
     
  5. Isher

    Isher Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    600
    Ummmm......

    Not really at all, in my opinion. Run through this comparison. http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/ VZ and AK can both take an extreme beating and be run dirty unlike the AR which is infamous for being a "sensitive" beast. In my experience, VZ is way more accurate, much softer recoil, better handling characteristics. And by the way I am comparing out of box guns here, not tricked out bling guns.

    isher
     
  6. taliv

    taliv Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    22,367
    if it quacks like an AK...
     
  7. Moose458

    Moose458 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    407
    Location:
    San Angelo, Tx
    Personally I really like my AR, but I not as much as my AKs, and I really love my VZ 58. If I could only have one, without a doubt it would be the CZ VZ 58. To vote for the AR, having never shot a VZ or an AK, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and doesn't carry much weight.
     
  8. Tirod

    Tirod Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    4,638
    Location:
    SW MO
    I choose the AR because you can get the caliber you need for the job to be done. There are very limited choices for the other two.

    It's not the bullet launcher that decides the down range result as much as the bullet/cartridge/rifling and shooter accuracy. Use the platform that delivers the goods. Like in fishing, the bass could care less what reel is on your rod if he can bend the hook.

    Repeating internet nonsense about which gun is more reliable just introduces confusion. There are lots of posts about defective AK's, and lots of buyers of cheap kit AR's not built to milspec. Both are subject to user error, bad magazines, or military reject ammo, and both have a street reputation not based on the user's experience at all.

    I would ask the AK aficianados to consider which rifle was built for use by a modern army with high school graduates as soldiers, and which was designed for use by farming peasants with barely an 8th grade education?

    That is still the criteria of the issuing governments today.
     
  9. Quentin

    Quentin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,826
    Location:
    NorthWest USA
    Well as you said there's the redhaired stepchild. Fine for you but I have enough oddballs in my life already so no vote from me. Not that I dislike the Czech VZ58 but it just hasn't clawed its way to the top like the AK and AR.

    Now the AK, it's everywhere and parts/magazines are plentiful, it's extremely reliable and well worth having so I do.

    Same for the AR but reliability may fall short under harsh conditions. As far as which is best overall regarding ergonomics, reliability, accuracy the AR takes two out of three by a large margin so got my vote.
     
  10. fugi

    fugi Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Israel has some of the brightest minds in the world, they're well funded and have fielded an AK variant for quite some time. They've been fighting their neighbors in a sandy environment, and winning. Yes. they do have M16s, but because they're free. A certain percent of the military aid the US gives them must go back to American companies. The Tavor came into favor because of the size, not the difference in engineering, as the Tavor also has a long-stroke rotating locking bolt. I don't know if the audience the weapon was designed for is necessarily an accurate barometer of its accuracy and reliability. If anything, I would tend to agree that a rifle operable by someone with an IQ below 70 is a better engineered machine.

    All that said, I'd go with a VZ because of the short-stroke piston which mitigates fouling in the receiver, being 7.62 it delivers more energy, the tilting locking breech block for its simplicity and large lugs and recesses that are not as sensitive as closed end small AR lugs in the barrel extension or larger, still closed end in the AK. As far as ergonomics go, the VZ and AK both have a folding stock instead of a telescoping thing stock around a silly buffer tube. The AK's selector sucks, and has no native bolt hold open, while the VZ and AR have a nice selector and bolt hold open. A lot of people go on about how the AR has low felt recoil and no muzzle rise because the bore is in line with the stock. Right, it sure is, but nobody fires with the stock on their shoulder, they fire with the bottom tip of it shouldered, making the bore quite a bit out of line with their shoulder. An A for effort though.
     
  11. dom1104

    dom1104 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,366
    uh... I fire my AR with the bottom tip of it shouldered, and it still has low muzzle rise and very little felt recoil... not sure what your point is. If it has those charecteristics, no matter how you hold it, the issue is... what?

    I love my AR, and a AK is on the buy list, as to the VZ, I think its a great rifle, but part of the attraction of an AK is that , its an AK. its ubiquitous. Its everywhere. its warty and nasty. to kinda sissify that and make it a caddillac AK like the VZ, not sure.

    AK = a military Humvee
    VZ 58 = A Hummer H2

    in my mind. the parts dont interchange, the ride is a lot nicer, and it sure looks better.

    If I wanted a NICE gun, I would go to my AR. If I wanted a cheap beater gun I would reach for the AK.

    The VZ is somewhere in the middle.
     
  12. seanie!

    seanie! Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Location:
    IL
    I voted AK, but if somebody out there wants to donate an AR to my collection to help sway my opinion, I'm all for it.

    Seriously though, apples to oranges. The AK is reliable, and with ergonomics and accuracy, it's got a case of the "enoughs". It's accurate enough to hit a man sized target and 300 meters. It's ergonomic enough to let you shoot a few hundred rounds out of it without cramping.

    The AR is, of course, accurate and ergonomic, and just so happens to be reliable enough to be a go to battle rifle for some of the most civilized and technologically advanced countries armed forces.

    Apples to oranges. Both always bring a smile to my face when I hit the go button though. :)
     
  13. fugi

    fugi Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    maybe it's my contempt for the H2, but that seems to imply that the VZ doesn't work as well. I mean if the bumper of the HMMWV can clear something, the rest of it can. the H2, however, you can bottom yourself out on a speed bump. VZs go for $600 now, compared to the $800 previously. About on par with a milled receiver AK.

    better or not, they're all well worth having though. I would advocate having at least one of each.
     
  14. NWCP

    NWCP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Most folks haven't had the pleasure of shooting much less owning the CZ VZ58 so your poll will be skewed. I own the VZ58. It is hands down better than the AK platform and more robust than the AR. It is overlooked by many shooters because it is more expensive than the myriad of AKs on the market. The VZ58 is very reliable and quite accurate as battle rifles go. At 200 yards it is well within MOM which is what it was made for.
     
  15. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2003
    Messages:
    2,881
    Location:
    SC
    I chose AR. My SAR-1 and my M&P15 both have somewhere between 3 and 4,000 rounds through them. Neither one of them has ever had a malfunction. The AR runs dirty just fine, and it gets dirtier than the AK because I only shoot it suppressed. Ergos are better on the AR, accuracy and sights are better, and it has less recoil.

    I didn't address the VZ because it's so...fugly. Besides, if I want a modified AK action the Sig is quite nice. After handling the VZ I was somewhat underwhelmed.
     
  16. malix

    malix Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Messages:
    130
    Location:
    Cleveland Ohio
    I have AKs in 5.45, 7.62, .308, and they are also available in 5.56 too. Im not really sure what kind of jobs couldn't be done with a selection like that.


    Never fired the VZ before, but between the other two choices i prefer the AK.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
  17. fugi

    fugi Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Austin, TX

    http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/

    not so much.
     
  18. rogertc1

    rogertc1 member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,497
    I have 5 AK's, 4 AR's, 1 AR reciever, 1 VZ, 2 VZ kits and 1 VZ reciever. All semi auto. I voted and the best ergonomics, reliability, accuracy is the AR.

    BTW the VZ is not a modified AK.
     
  19. RX-178

    RX-178 Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,647
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Voted AK... when I really meant to vote AR.

    Serves me right for THR'ing without my glasses on.

    With just those three factors to consider, it's just about impossible to beat an AR.

    If you bring PRICE into the equation, it evens the playing field a little more, although now that companies like DoubleStar are producing ARs for between $600-$700, I'd probably still vote AR.
     
  20. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    5,356
    Location:
    Oregon
    Dunno if that was meant for me but I have an AR and an AK (but haven't shot a CZ). I like the ergonomics of the AR over my AK but that could be due to the amount of trigger time on each, and the fact my AK still has the teeny commie factory pistol grip.
    All 3 are charming in their own EBR way :)
     
  21. happygeek

    happygeek Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,527
    Location:
    OCONUS
    LiquidTension wrote:
    I agree. The wife gave me a Sig 556 SWAT model for Christmas. I was eyeing the SCAR-L (well, whatever FNH is calling the semi-auto version of the SCAR-L) at the store, but the Sig was half the price.
     
  22. BurningSaviour

    BurningSaviour Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    47
    I'd probably go with the AR, but it's also the most familiar platform to me. I own an AK and a Vz. 58, as well. I like the Vz. 58 better of the two. Nothing against my AK, but, three tours later, I've grown a little bit of a distaste for them.
    A little bit of filing on the feed ramps, and the Vz. ate up hollow point Wolf ammo just as well as my AK.
    I'm going to go null vote on this one. I see ups and downs with all three.
     
  23. YaNi

    YaNi Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Obamunism
    I would discount the CZ VZ58 since it doesn't use standard AK mags or parts. Everything is higher quality than a run of the mill AK, but if you need something will you be able to easily find it? A quick search on google and the price of 30 round mags start at $38! You may also get nightmares if you have to deal with 922r compliance.

    Accuracy - AR
    Ergonomics - AR
    Reliability - AK (as a mud gun)
     
  24. fugi

    fugi Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/produ...cessories/30-round-magazine-complete-surplus/

    $13 for a VZ mag

    everything isn't "higher quality", it's entirely different. you're still comparing it to an AK like it's an AK model. it is not. Why would you complain that it doesn't use AK parts or mags? That's like me complaining that a CETME won't use FAL parts or mags. "but it's the same caliber and looks kind of the same!" there are no 922(r) nightmares, they make kits. same with AKs, and that only applies if you assemble it yourself.
     
  25. Isher

    Isher Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    600
    fugi -

    +1

    Beat me to it.............

    That's the reason I've always hated Chevys;

    Ford parts didn't fit!

    isher
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page