Senior fires at police during raid and lives!

[1911 guy]

Spot77 said:
I agree it's not entirely the officers' fault. It's OUR fault for allowing operations like this to become standard operating procedure. It's the legislatures' faults, the courts' faults, and Americans' faults. We tolerate it.

Oh, we complain about it, but get told to **** because we're not professional enough to critique our public servants.

 

[Fosbery]

Oh I do hope this guy sues the police department. Goodbye:

Forensics lab
Dog team
Helicopter
Police station
Cars
Computers
Equipment
Uniforms
Wages

 

[B.D. Turner]

After working public service for the past 25 years (police, sheriff, EMS, and Fire department) I can say one thing for sure. The press is less than 40% accurate in reporting the news. I have been involved in incidents that they screwed up the story on so much you wonder if it happened or if you were even there. Do not believe everything you read in a local news paper. Some of the most liberal people you will ever meet work for these news services.

 

[Daemon688]

So it was a lie the house burned down from the flash bang? The old man did it? They actually targeted the right house? What 40% of this news story is accurate then?

Things that would be undisputable:
Cops + wrong house + old man + burnt down house + bean bagged family members = LAWSUIT. I hope they get lots of money.

 

[Manedwolf]

Oh I do hope this guy sues the police department. Goodbye:

Forensics lab
Dog team
Helicopter
Police station
Cars
Computers
Equipment
Uniforms
Wages

I could care less. They need to learn to rein in their tactical ninjas, or they lose their toys for a while. They get them back when they start behaving like officers of the peace, not like paramilitary troops.

This was goodbye:

House
Furniture
Irreplaceable Heirlooms
Papers
Relics
Scrapbooks
Children's Drawings
Trophies
A Lifetime of Memories
and ALMOST goodbye to the two people inside!

Does it have to happen to you before it's not okay?

 

[hammer4nc]

Lots of people have sued police depts. and been awarded million dollar settlements. Never has this resulted in the decrease of any LE budgetary resources. Often, just the opposite happens; police given budget increases, to prevent the mistake from occurring again. Individual police officers are protected by sovereign immunity in most cases. If they screw up really bad, they might get fired.

Pretty poor system for behavior modification, eh?

IBTL

 

[Fosbery]

Manedwolf, I wasn't being sarcastic. I DO hope he sues. If the department is going to act like that then it dosn't deserved uniforms or wages or anything. I was merely pointing out that considering he lost the entire house, was trapped inside a burning building, was shot at, was possibly beanbagged, was tackled to the ground etc and considering his old age and his medical condition, he will get a HUGE pay out thus quite possibly depriving the department of those things.

 

[TeachMe]

Trying to compensate for poor police work by heavy-handed tactics just makes a bad situation worse.

 

[Molon Labe]

Another thing to remember: a SWAT's budget is determined by "need."

Every year a city must review the previous year's services and expenditures. "How much money are we bringing in? What programs need to be cut? What programs need to be increase? What services & programs are productive, and which are wasteful?"

If a city allocated big $ to fund a SWAT that was rarely used, the city will conclude the SWAT team is not needed and slash (or eliminate) its budget. Therefore, a SWAT has a vested interest in conducting as many raids as possible... it justifies their existence.

In addition to the SWAT conducting as many raids as possible to justify its existence, raids are conducted because it's fun. At least this is what my LEO buddy tells me. He said most members of their SWAT team get a real thrill out of conducting raids, and they brag about their exploits in the locker room the following day.

 

[Pilgrim]

I've never been a cop, but I have done some work for Uncle Sam, jobs that got me out from behind my desk. Nothing was done without full briefing, everybody's questions answered. Where are the half-way intelligent people on these raids who ask a question or two before shooting up the elderly?

Years ago, when I was a reserve deputy sheriff, I stopped an ambitious sergeant from doing something incredibly stupid.

An anonymous informant called the department and said two bank robbers wanted in Los Angeles were staying at one of the county's flea bag hotels. The sergeant was ready to go kicking in the door and arrest these criminals. As I listened to his quick briefing for the festivities, I started asking questions.

How do we know we have the right room?
Are they there?
Has any one called LAPD and see if they really want these guys?
If they are the right guys, and they are there, and LAPD wants them, what do we do about all the guests living all around their room, especially if they are well armed and want to fight?

The sergeant thought about it, then decided he had better make some phone calls. While doing this, he sent a deputy in plain clothes to ask around. The deputy did a 'knock and talk' and discovered the 'robbers' were just wetbacks in town to look for work.

The sergeant called LAPD and found they knew nothing about any bank robbers hiding in our county.

Just a few questions is all it takes.

Pilgrim

 

[griz]

Assuming the article is accurately reporting what the police said:

Is it normal to use a bullhorn to announce the raid THEN use flashbangs? I don't see the logic in that unless you just really like to see them go off.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

This Was not a DRUG RAID so....

I don't understand the need for the Swat Style entry at all(not that I think it would be justified if it was a drug raid). My point is that no knock drug raids get justified because of the ,"possibility", that evidence ,"might", be destroyed. What were they going to do, start flushing the stolen goods down the toilet ? Even if the person that was allegedly involed with the original theft was considered a dangerous person(or whatever), more intel would have prevented this scenario from ever having to occur. Perform a high risk stop on the guy as he leaves or something, then serve the warrant by simply knocking and presenting it. This is sad all around. What a Merry Christmas for these poor folks:banghead: !

 

[.45&TKD]

raids are conducted because it's fun. At least this is what my LEO buddy tells me. He said most members of their SWAT team get a real thrill out of conducting raids, and they brag about their exploits in the locker room the following day.

I think this is the wrong mindset for this line of work.

As a martial artist and shooter, I enjoy training to fight, but would not actually enjoy hurting other people in a real fight. I train so I don't have to fight, as most of us here do. I think this is true for most of our armed forces, as well.

Anybody that enjoys SWAT tactics against civilians on a regular basis, should be excluded from that line of work, for the simple reason that they like something that should be abhorent to the normal well adjusted person.
These tactics should be a last resort in extreme cases.

If they really like it that much, let them train on their own time, with no pay, (like we do) in addition to their regular police duties. That would take care of the budgetary justifications, and still have trained people for those rare emergencies.

 

[TrybalRage]

Don't police do stakeouts anymore? You know, watch who's coming and going?

 

[dasmi]

Another isolated incident, right?
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

[Sindawe]

I ran across this phrase a few years ago being sported in the sig file of a member of a California PD , sadly with each passing day it is becoming more and more a statement of fact than a humorous jest.

 

[Hobie]

The problem here isn't the LEO's kicking in the door - it's the departmental leaders that are at fault!

I understand the guys doing the "kick-in"- they are just following orders, one's that they beileve are "justified".

Just following orders. Yep, justification for the little guy.

 

[Firethorn]

Don't police do stakeouts anymore? You know, watch who's coming and going?

You know, you're right. It doesn't even have to be a 'manned' stakeout. Especially in today's world, it should be the easiest thing in the world to mount a couple cameras around a neighborhood(temporarily, at least with a warrant) to watch a single house.

24 hours should be enough to give you a 90% accurate estimate of who's inside. Give it a week and you can be 99% certain.

With today's technology, you wouldn't have to spend 24 man-hours minimum to watch a place 24 hours/day. A little motion detection equipment/software in the package and you'd only have to review the bits with significant movement, perhaps 1-5 hours/day. You could practically fast forward through that.

How about this for an idea: Establish a 'compensation' fund for each police department. Each time the police cause damage to an innocent party, or even damage in excess of possible criminal penalties*, it would be paid for out of this fund.

At the end of the year, the remaining fund is divied up and paid to the individual officers and personel. Now, I had the idea of cutting the fund in half, where half is divied out to individual officers and supervisors, and any deductions for damages come out of their share first, then the departmental share, before finally going to unrelated individual shares again. That way good officers can still get their bonus, even if one officer screws up(at least not monumentally).

*Burning somebody's house down then 'finding' the stub of a MJ cigarette in the back yard would be 'in excess'. Knocking out a bit of drywall in a house to find 20 kilos of cocaine isn't.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Flashbangs and tear gas are very effective tools in police raids. Unfortunetly they have been documented to cause many house fires during a raid. Unintentionally of course but they can definetly make a hostile entry a little easier.

Back on topic,it does seem odd they would not try and call the house and verify the suspect is there especially when they have the neighborhood surrounded. And yes a shootout could have occurred but a SWAT team should be much better armed than a single suspect...cant say that however for any members on here who may be better armed than their locale SWAT.

 

[ChiefThunderstick]

LOL, no knock raids to preserve evidence. They would have destroyed any by burning the house down.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

several people asked about the use of flashbangs for just "stolen property." for clarification, the wanted person (who was not at this residence) was supposedly a suspect for: "carjacking, kidnapping, aggravated assault and home invasion." all of those are violent felonies. that's not to say the cops hit the wrong house, or did not do their homework prior to serving this warrant.

however, the rationale for using the flashbangs appears to be listed in the news story:

They came with a warrant in hand to search for items stolen by a 23-year-old suspect they consider dangerous.

Earlier this week near the house, police found a Cadillac Escalade sport utility vehicle they believe Villarreal had stolen Sunday during a home invasion in Scottsdale, according to Scottsdale police spokesman Sgt. Mark Clark. And a truck used in the crime was registered to the Phoenix house, Clark said.

Villarreal is a suspect in a carjacking, kidnapping, aggravated assault and home invasion. Police believe he was helped by one or two people in each crime. They consider him dangerous.

i'd say that if i was asked to go arrest someone who was a suspect in several violent felonies, and i had the option to use a flashbang or two in order to distract him while i could safely take him into custody (providing i was at the right place) then i think given the circumstances, i'd have used the flashbangs too.

 

[ceetee]

...most members of their SWAT team get a real thrill out of conducting raids, and they brag about their exploits in the locker room the following day.

That's true. I've seen it, heard it, and even (rarely) been a part of it, in another part of my life.

I think this is the wrong mindset for this line of work.

As a martial artist and shooter, I enjoy training to fight, but would not actually enjoy hurting other people in a real fight. I train so I don't have to fight, as most of us here do. I think this is true for most of our armed forces, as well.

Anybody that enjoys SWAT tactics against civilians on a regular basis, should be excluded from that line of work, for the simple reason that they like something that should be abhorent to the normal well adjusted person.

That's also true. BUt the kind of person most qualified to do the work is least interested in doing it. This same attitude could be applied to every facet of "public service", from cop to President. Invariably, those most qualified for the job have the least desire to take it on. (And vice-versa.)

 

[MechAg94]

Spreadfire, from the article is sounded like there was very little reason to think the suspect you mention was actually at that house. A stakeout would have been much more effective.

 

[marshall3]

Sue for $100,000,000 and send a message...

The suit needs to be for an outrageous sum, and if they win, it will stop all these raids in a trice. 100 million would do it.

 

[pcosmar]

Being that ": Erasmo Ruiz Villarreal, 23." did not live there, and there is no indication that he was ever there, I wonder how a warrant was obtained.
Could it be another "anonimous source" with a tip.

"Moreover, "other investigative sources" pointed to the house as a place where police could find stolen goods from a Gilbert burglary Villarreal is suspected of, Clark said."

Good work guys. Villarreal is still at large.