Serbu Super Shorty for CCW?

[Jath]

I've always wanted one of these little guys. I think I would be more than comfortable carrying 3 rounds of buckshot in my bag in the case of a self defense scenario, how about you? I think that the inherent accuracy is superior to that of pistols, with the added bonus of multiple strikes on target per shot.

The two problems now, price, (900+) and SBR restrictions.

I personally think arbitrary restrictions on short barreled guns is stupid.

Check this thread out:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=621100

 

[Youngster]

I'd recommend against it, they're still awkwardly large for CCW, not easy to shoot well, and power-wise come in right between a .410 Judge and a regular .410 shotgun.

They're probably great in their intended role as a breaching gun but they're not well suited for anything else really.

 

[zhyla]

I think that the inherent accuracy is superior to that of pistols

I think you're wrong. Long guns are easier to place shots on target with under stress. The Serbu Super Shorty isn't anything close to a long gun. Handguns are the clear winners for concealed carry.

But whatever, if you want one just buy it.

Btw, the gun in question isn't an SBR nor an SBS. It's an AOW.

 

[Jath]

Oh, AOW, I was wondering why it was a $5 stamp....

As for it being less effective than a .410, thats BS. a 12 gauge from a shorter barrel is only marginally less effective than from a slightly longer barrel for 12 Gauge. And it fits nicely into a backpack or a dufflebag. I'm not talking about carrying it in my back pocket.

Regardless, of its AOW designation, the SBR bans/restrictions are stupid, and you should sign the petition.

 

[oneounceload]

It's an AOW because it started out as a receiver form the factory with no stock attached, hence the AOW designation

 

[Youngster]

As for it being less effective than a .410, thats BS. a 12 gauge from a shorter barrel is only marginally less effective than from a slightly longer barrel for 12 Gauge. And it fits nicely into a backpack or a dufflebag. I'm not talking about carrying it in my back pocket.

Regardless, of its AOW designation, the SBR bans/restrictions are stupid, and you should sign the petition.

With only 6.5" of barrel, even full power buckshot will only be going 900 fps, once you get down to less than 12" barrel length you start losing a significant % of power and can usually expect horrible patterns as well.

I agree on the bbl length laws, if they weren't in place I think most defensive shotguns would have 12-14" length barrels as standard.

 

[dprice3844444]

put a sixround carrier on the side and you have a formidable close in weapon.it will most definately get the job done.if they would put a modified winchoke in it,it would be even better.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I think I would be more than comfortable carrying 3 rounds of buckshot in my bag in the case of a self defense scenario, how about you?

In a word, NO. I'm perfectly comfortable carrying a pistol from pants on to pants off every day. I love me some shotgun as a defensive weapon as much as anyone you're apt to find around here, but trying to make a mountain into a molehill accomplishes little in this regard.

Still, if you think it's a good idea, have at it...

ETA: Reading the gun blogs this morning, I ran across this statement at Tam's place - The less people know about guns...
...the more they want a derringer.
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/10/less-people-know-about-guns.html
Apparently I just don't get it either. Oh well.

 

[zhyla]

Regardless, of its AOW designation, the SBR bans/restrictions are stupid, and you should sign the petition.

I don't sign stupid petitions that are guaranteed to have zero effect. But that's more for the legal forum than this one.

One last point... the PGO shotguns have been widely discussed here. They have some obvious drawbacks, pain being one of them. The Serbu is likely to be even more painful. How fast do you think a followup shot will happen?

 

[dprice3844444]

zhyla,as long as you do not use slugs,the pain is minimal.i have 2 wilson arms witness protection shotguns(developed for the us marshalls) with 13 inch barrels(see stallone movie cobra).the serbu is a clone of the wilson arms company executive protection shotgun originally developed for the miami vice television series(which tubbs carried),except the wilson had interchangeable chokes to use #4 buck.

 

[rcmodel]

I think that is a really bad idea.

I also think you would have a lot of splaining to do when the cops come after you used it in a SD shoot.

Legal shoot or not, and tax stamped or not, a lot of cops on the scene, and the BG's lawyers would get their panties in a wad real fast I betcha!

rc

 

[Youngster]

I have a 12.5" bbl for my 870, no problems with recoil and it throws patterns very well for an IC choke, velocity wise it falls right between a regular and a reduced recoil load when using full power buck, so you've still got a lot of horsepower.

It's extremely handy as you'd expect. The bad news is, its LOUD and BLASTY, even compared to a regular riot length barrel. I'd hate to have to touch one off without hearing protection, a 6.5" tube would be a nightmare!

 

[Sam1911]

I think I would be more than comfortable carrying 3 rounds of buckshot in my bag in the case of a self defense scenario, how about you?

You're contemplating defending yourself with three shots on tap and then a slow reload? I'm forever repeating the old "3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds" mantra, but that doesn't at all mean I want to limit myself to three rounds. Stuff happens. I don't maybe need 19+1 in the gun, but three is cutting it too darned close for comfort.

I think that the inherent accuracy is superior to that of pistols,

No. Not at all. Not even close. Most people can make good hits with a long-gun, with a little bit of training and practice. Probably they can make better hits with a long-gun than with a handgun, give that little bit of training and practice. NO ONE makes better hits faster with a pistol-grip-only shotgun (even with a longer barrel) than with a normal handgun.

Can it be effective? Sure. Is it a better choice, in any way, even if all costs and hassles were equal? NO.

with the added bonus of multiple strikes on target per shot.

Well...that's a bit of a philosophical issue. Nine pellets times three shots (if they all land) is 27 ~60 gr. impacts in ... let's say you could get those hits in three seconds, if you're GOOD.

If I'm carrying my xDM, in those same three seconds I could put fifteen 125-147 gr. slugs into the target in that same 3 seconds. And have another second's worth of shooting left to go!

(If the 1911, that would be nine 230 gr. slugs in about 1.5 seconds. Then a pause for a reload.)

That's neither a perfect comparison, nor a useless one either -- but whatever the benefit of those 27 small projectiles would be, it isn't enough to convince me to give up carrying a lighter, more accurate, easier to shoot gun with plenty of extra shots on tap.

 

[Dave McCracken]

BAD idea.....

 

[Jath]

You're contemplating defending yourself with three shots on tap and then a slow reload? I'm forever repeating the old "3 shots, 3 feet, 3 seconds" mantra, but that doesn't at all mean I want to limit myself to three rounds. Stuff happens. I don't maybe need 19+1 in the gun, but three is cutting it too darned close for comfort.

No. Not at all. Not even close. Most people can make good hits with a long-gun, with a little bit of training and practice. Probably they can make better hits with a long-gun than with a handgun, give that little bit of training and practice. NO ONE makes better hits faster with a pistol-grip-only shotgun (even with a longer barrel) than with a normal handgun.

Can it be effective? Sure. Is it a better choice, in any way, even if all costs and hassles were equal? NO.

Well...that's a bit of a philosophical issue. Nine pellets times three shots (if they all land) is 27 ~60 gr. impacts in ... let's say you could get those hits in three seconds, if you're GOOD.

If I'm carrying my xDM, in those same three seconds I could put fifteen 125-147 gr. slugs into the target in that same 3 seconds. And have another second's worth of shooting left to go!

(If the 1911, that would be nine 230 gr. slugs in about 1.5 seconds. Then a pause for a reload.)

That's neither a perfect comparison, nor a useless one either -- but whatever the benefit of those 27 small projectiles would be, it isn't enough to convince me to give up carrying a lighter, more accurate, easier to shoot gun with plenty of extra shots on tap.

I call BS. at 30 yards, 15 shots on target in 3 seconds, HELL no. Maybe within 5 feet... Shotgun, 2 shots = 24 pellets (3 inch 00 buck) in 3 seconds. The thing about a shortened shotgun, it's not a pistol, its still a shotgun. I only have to shoot once to each of your 12 shots (assuming we're both on target). If you wanna get technical, we could say you're shooting em with a 9mm vs. a .32 which is approximately 35% better per shot. I still get 8-9 shots per one of yours.

The point of a shotgun isn't followup shots and speed shooting, it's about one really effective hit. The idea is that you don't need followup shots.

As for accuracy, rarely ever miss what I'm shooting at with a shotgun at any range no matter what size it is, wheather I shoot from the hip or aim, or weather I use my stock or pistol grip... granted, the stock improves my aim considerably, but I'm still more likely to hit a target with 1 shot of buckshot vs. 1 or 2 shots of pistol fire, from a given distance.

I swear, it's like you people make this stuff up as you go... Do you even shoot these guns you're making "factual" statements about?

 

[zhyla]

As for accuracy, rarely ever miss what I'm shooting at with a shotgun at any range

It's worth noting that at short range your precious 12 pellets are actually one tight mass of pellets. Under stress people miss, that's just the fact of life. If you think you rarely miss I suggest you find a local IDPA-style shotgun match. I've missed shots under pressure that would be embarrassing otherwise.

Do you plan to carry this with an empty chamber? One nice thing with modern handguns is they've put a lot of engineering effort into making them safe to carry around all day. As far as I know, Mossberg's safety mechanism is only a trigger block (someone correct me if I'm wrong), not a firing pin block. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable lugging one of these around with a live round in the chamber.

Speaking of safeties... I love my Mossberg, and I like their safety location, but it's a bitch to work with a pistol grip stock.

I think you're wrong to get upset with Lee, Dave, and Sam for telling you you're going the wrong way. These are nice guys with lots of experience. Me on the other hand... I'm just some guy with a shotgun and a logical bent.

 

[Pete D.]

(If the 1911, that would be nine 230 gr. slugs in about 1.5 seconds. Then a pause for a reload.)

I have a bit of trouble with that data. The cyclic rate there is 360 rpm....full auto in some guns.
Aimed fire....nine trigger pulls with ball ammo and recovery from recoil in 1.5 seconds.
I would dearly love to see that. Maybe there is a video - not yours necessarily - of some one shooting ball ammo that fast and accurately.
I have seen seven in 1.1 seconds so perhaps nine is doable ----but for the average shooter, I think not.
I did not see a target for that 1.1 second run - just a guy shooting in a field.
I have seen video of 32 rounds in 16.3 seconds with four magazine changes, movement and fine accuracy.
Pete

 

[zdc1775]

It is Rob Latham and I don't think its a .45 but here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I3sc565Hlc

 

[Davek1977]

A serbu shines in its limited intended purpose as a breaching gun, etc. However, if it truly were the "bee's knees" in regards to a defensive firearm, we would see it in much wider use among the self-defense crowd. Quite simply, there are about a thousand different firearms that would serve defensive purposes better than a Serbu. Muzzle blast, reduced effectiveness, recoil, limited ammo supply, etc all weigh against it. If you want one....buy one....theres nothing wrong with "wanting" a certain gun. However, don't fool yourself as to its practicality as a defensive weapon. There are many drawbacks...covered in detail n this thread....that point to other weapons being a far better, and more practical, choice. You can keep "calling BS" as you seem fond of doing, but your opinion doesn't outweigh the factual shortcomings of the Serbu as a CCW/Defensive weapon

 

[evan price]

In some states- like Ohio, where I'm from- only a handgun may be carried as a CCW. Best check your local laws.

Ever carried or used a shotgun? Know how big a Mossberg 500 receiver is? Ever actually SHOT a Serbu? Ever carried a gun daily? Know how to CCW at all?

 

[Sam1911]

I call BS. at 30 yards, 15 shots on target in 3 seconds, HELL no. Maybe within 5 feet...

Wait, when did 30 YARDS come into it? I thought we were talking about self-defense? And no, you aren't going to make 3 hits with a Super Shorty at 30 yards. Not in 3 seconds. Probably not in 30 seconds. Good grief.

The thing about a shortened shotgun, it's not a pistol, its still a shotgun. I only have to shoot once to each of your 12 shots (assuming we're both on target). If you wanna get technical, we could say you're shooting em with a 9mm vs. a .32 which is approximately 35% better per shot. I still get 8-9 shots per one of yours.

Agreed. No problem. But I'll be much faster and more accurate with the handgun, and I don't personally count the hail of pellets as a decided advantage over my own aimed rate of fire, based on my experiences, testing of these ideas, and recorded times.

The point of a shotgun isn't followup shots and speed shooting, it's about one really effective hit. The idea is that you don't need followup shots.

Have you ever done practical shooting competition? Have you ever taken any training, or practiced force-on-force. NO ONE counts on ONE SHOT. That's absurd. The great preponderance of evidence shows that most shots fired in a violent encounter MISS. You certainly may hit with your first shot and put the attacker out of commission. But I'd not bet a dime, or my life, on that possibility.

As for accuracy, rarely ever miss what I'm shooting at with a shotgun at any range no matter what size it is, weather I shoot from the hip or aim, or weather I use my stock or pistol grip...

Ooookay, then. Guess that answers my question in the paragraph above. Never mind.

I swear, it's like you people make this stuff up as you go... Do you even shoot these guns you're making "factual" statements about

Oh boy... if that's a serious question... the answer is yes. At a rate of something approaching 10,000 rounds a year, generally. In competition and training. And shooting weekly and monthly, with folks who have decades more practical training than myself, and/or folks who expend three+ times the ammo I do in their quest to win national championships in practical shooting. Watch, learn, try, discuss, compare notes, learn, succeed, DO, and teach others.

I'm really not "making this stuff up as I go along." I promise.

 

[Sam1911]

I have a bit of trouble with that data. The cyclic rate there is 360 rpm....full auto in some guns.

A trained pistol shooter can sustain aimed fire with splits of easily 0.20 seconds. That's five shots a second. Yes, it is equal to or close to the cyclic rate of some of the slower sub-guns like the M3.

I've shot aimed splits under 0.15 sec., though not a full magazine of them in one string.

Aimed fire....nine trigger pulls with ball ammo and recovery from recoil in 1.5 seconds.

Sure. My ammo is 200 gr. SWCs at 850 fps. Pretty close to ball ammo specs. Certainly no powder-puff load.

Now, what's not stipulated is a draw, or type of holster, or concealment worn, etc. That's just pure rate of fire. Most good shooters can achieve a 1.25 second draw, and some can get under a second. Add a second for the draw, and then 9 shots and you'd be at 2.5s or a little under.

I'd not included that time as I don't know what kind of carry rig the Sebu-toting shooter would need to use, but I can't imagine it would be as fast on the draw, and certainly isn't as fast to get off safe, as a traditional handgun and I didn't want to artificially put him at a further disadvantage.

I would dearly love to see that. Maybe there is a video - not yours necessarily - of some one shooting ball ammo that fast and accurately.
I have seen seven in 1.1 seconds so perhaps nine is doable ----

I'll look around. Most good shooters demoing pure speed are shooting "Bill Drills" but that's only six shots. (Here's a fast fellow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKv6TJMq0Q Draw and six shots on target in 1.11 sec. If his draw is only 0.5 seconds, his splits are a bare hair over 0.10 sec!)

but for the average shooter, I think not.

Now I never said an "average" shooter. The average is very hard to determine, as the "average" shooter might be anyone from a deer hunter, to a bench-rest shooter, or silhouette shooter, or Grandpa who just loves to take the kids out back with the .22s to plink at cans. I wouldn't expect this from someone who is not an experienced pistol shooter who has some time behind the trigger practicing this kind of thing.

'Course, hitting much, quickly, with a Super Shorty is also not for the untrained, either.

 

[Sam1911]

And, this appears to be just another "feeder" thread into your petition thread.

Once more, a good discussion so I'm letting it slide, but please don't do that.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I swear, it's like you people make this stuff up as you go... Do you even shoot these guns you're making "factual" statements about?

 

[hso]

I think that the inherent accuracy is superior to that of pistols

I know it isn't having shot more than one of these types of shotguns. They are not more accurate than a pistol.