Serbu Super Shorty for CCW?

[Justin]

I've shot a Serbu Super Shorty, under pressure at close range (clay pigeons set out at about ten yards.)

It was at the 2010 Rocky Mountain Nationals, the SSS was a pickup gun, with the option to use your handgun on the targets if you missed.

Not only did a number of extremely good shooters miss, from observation and experience, it was quite clear that the SSS was much slower to get on target, fire, and cycle than a semi-automatic handgun. The recoil was also much more stout, even with bird shot, than the recoil of a standard handgun.



I did not hear even one competitor voice an opinion that they wished they could have run the rest of the handgun portion of the stage with the Serbu.



That said, despite the fact that the Serbu would make for a bad choice for concealed carry, one of these would make for a very fun range toy to bring out on special occasions.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I think I would be more than comfortable carrying 3 rounds of buckshot in my bag in the case of a self defense scenario, how about you?

Exactly where does the super shorty win when compared to an auto loader?

• It carries only 3 rounds...albeit three potent rounds. Lose.
• Accurate fire at a fast rate. Lose. Ridiculously slow to reload unless you are carrying shot shells on your belt, but even then it is still slower to reload than even a 5 shot snub. By the time you've fired 3 accurate shots, reloaded and fired 3 more...I've emptied every magazine I could carry on my belt for an auto pistol (let's go out on a limb and say 3-4, even though I'll only carry that many when running drills) into a small 8" or less area, while moving. Lose.
• You can fit it in a small bag. Tie! But why bother? Off-body carry is absurdly slow to draw. Opening a bag, retrieving a pistol/SSS, pointing it in the general direction of a target and firing 3 rounds in under 2 seconds is going to be really hard.

think that the inherent accuracy is superior to that of pistols

Really? I've done my fair share of hip shooting with a shotgun and if I just had to make an accurate shot, I'd prefer a pistol and a set of sights on my hip. Especially if said shotgun was in a bag, without a stock and only carrying 3 rounds.

That being said, a SSS is very fun...but I view it as a more of a novelty. For whatever purpose you can conceive to make it work; there is a rifle/stocked shotgun/pistol that will fulfill that role better in every way.

 

[Justin]

Exactly where does the super shorty win when compared to an auto loader?

I know how we can find out...

 

[Mike1234567]

I hope I'm not derailing this thread but...

I started a thread asking if there are any PGO .410 semi-auto AOW's available. The answer, thus far, is "no" so now I'm considering a Saiga conversion and will pay the stoopid $200 federal tax. This would be for HD only.

Recoil recovery should be easy enough with a .410.
Aiming should be accurate with a light/laser combo.

I wouldn't do this with a 12ga nor would I try to use the iron sights.

What do you folks think of this option?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I think that option is less effective than a webley and a pistol class.

or a levergun and a rifle class

or a 10-22 and a rifle class.

or an H&R single shot and a shotgun class.

 

[Justin]

Eh. I think a 410 shotgun would be a perfectly adequate gun for home defense. I had the chance to test-fire a 410 pump shotgun several years ago that had been modified into an HD configuration by a gunsmith. Length-wise, there was nothing special about it. It certainly didn't require a tax stamp or the like, but it handled fine, and shot-to-shot was fairly quick.

The gun had been specifically configured for someone who couldn't handle a 12 or 20 gauge gun due to a medical condition, I want to say it was arthritis or the like.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Eh. I think a 410 shotgun would be a perfectly adequate gun for home defense.

As do I. The complaints with the latest 410 revolvers are regarding the short barrel length that has a drastic affect on accuracy. But I would have no doubts when using a 410 for home defense...assuming the barrel is a decent length and it has a proper stock.

 

[Justin]

I've no problem with a proper 410 shotgun for HD.

The Taurus Judge, though, is generally purchased by people who just don't know any better.

 

[jmorris]

And some people think a 1911 is to big for CCW. Have you ever held/shot one? They are small for a shotgun but not for a CCW, might as well carry a pair of desert eagles.

 

[Lightsped]

I own several shotguns including a Super Shorty. I don't forsee my CCWing the Super Shorty, but in my mind it makes for a decent car/truck gun. Fits real nice on the floor behind the seats.

In reality, my Super Shorty is a gun I take to the range just for fun. It lives in the safe, but if I had to carry it, it would be a car/truck gun.

 

[Mainsail]

Maybe not for concealed carry, but as mentioned above it works as a car/truck gun. Here in WA it is illegal to carry a loded rifle or shotgun in your car or truck. The Serbu or an AR15 pistol allows you a little more firepower in your car than a handgun. Nevertheless, I don't think my ears would appreciate either of those going off inside my car.

 

[ddub13]

It's worth noting that at short range your precious 12 pellets are actually one tight mass of pellets. Under stress people miss, that's just the fact of life. If you think you rarely miss I suggest you find a local IDPA-style shotgun match. I've missed shots under pressure that would be embarrassing otherwise.

Actually, in my (limited) 3 gun experience, shotgun is BY FAR the easiest to make hits with. Shooting at steel with a shotgun at the same range as with a handgun, the shotgun would always get the one hit knockdown and I personally am faster and more accurate with a (full stocked!) shotgun than a 9mm handgun (which even with a hit wouldn't always get the knockdown).

That said, I've never tried it with a PGO shotgun and would imagine that not too many people shoot matches with one Point being that a shotgun match may not be the best argument for one versus the other.

 

[Justin]

Awhile back, a guy ran a PGO shotgun at a local match.

My writeup on the event can be found in the archives.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Was he using a laser sight? I'm assuming it was a 12ga.

 

[Sam1911]

Was he using a laser sight?

In a match? Ugh, no. I doubt it. They're usually too much of a hindrance in that kind of setting -- just not a fast enough sighting system to be competitive against conventional sights.

No mention of a laser. Wonder if that would have made him faster or slower, considering the compounding issue of the PGO grip?

 

[Mike1234567]

The way I see it a laser/light combo should work very well for HD because.....

Initial aim is obtained by pointing the light, which is somewhat directional. The brightest spot goes to coarse POA. The laser is the fine-pointing device. Point-'n-shoot.

It seems to me that having to bring a firearm up to one's shoulder and concentrate on iron sights is slower than a PGO with light/laser. Aim the light then see where the laser is pointing. Add to this the natural tendency to look at the attacker and not iron sights and the solution seems natural... to me. It seems (to me) that a bulky stock would only be a hindrance in a situation like that.

Again, I'll test my own theory.

 

[Sam1911]

Again, I'll test my own theory.

Please do. The results [strike]will[/strike] might surprise you!

 

[Youngster]

At close range, a shouldered shotgun that fits properly should shoot to whatever point you're looking at as a given, allowing you to focus on the target and allowing you to get on it faster than a distracting laser dot ever will.

 

[Justin]

^^^ Was he using a laser sight? I'm assuming it was a 12ga.

He was not using a laser sight. IIRC, the gun was a 20 gauge Mossberg.

If you've got some sort of medical condition, arthritis or the like, that keeps you from using a gun with a stock, you'd probably be better off with a handgun.

Actually, in my (limited) 3 gun experience, shotgun is BY FAR the easiest to make hits with. Shooting at steel with a shotgun at the same range as with a handgun, the shotgun would always get the one hit knockdown and I personally am faster and more accurate with a (full stocked!) shotgun than a 9mm handgun (which even with a hit wouldn't always get the knockdown).

Yes. With a standard-stocked shotgun, hits on steel are a lot faster and easier, even when moving. Breaking clays at 10 yards, however, proved to be slower than doing the same with a handgun.

 

[Mike1234567]

* deleted *

 

[Strykervet]

Eh. I think a 410 shotgun would be a perfectly adequate gun for home defense. I had the chance to test-fire a 410 pump shotgun several years ago that had been modified into an HD configuration by a gunsmith. Length-wise, there was nothing special about it. It certainly didn't require a tax stamp or the like, but it handled fine, and shot-to-shot was fairly quick.

The gun had been specifically configured for someone who couldn't handle a 12 or 20 gauge gun due to a medical condition, I want to say it was arthritis or the like.

My great grandmother, born in 1907? kept a double barrel .410 next to the door her whole life. She lived in the deep backwoods of Alabama her whole life, totally depended on that thing. She had all kinds of shells, took everything from varmints, snakes, birds, squirrels, rabbits, rabid animals, stray dogs (rock salt and lethal) wolves and coyotes, and even deer. Yes, she could kill deer out her front door with a .410 and was pretty good at. May have even ran a bear or two off in her day. But she was old stock, they don't make grannies like that anymore! To her, the .410 double barrel was THE weapon.

I've looked at the Serbus, I think they are cool, but they have a limited use. Good plinker, has limited use for defense, would be a great breaching tool for infantry units. I have a Mossy 500 breacher I got when they came out for a real good deal. I liked the fact that shotgun has a super thick barrel, I wish they made a regular barrel but like that one. The intention was to modify the barrel, tube, and slide to make a 14"bbl. PG shotgun, an AOW. Pachmayer makes a grip for shotguns that is like a square butt Smith and Wesson pistol grip, would be real nice for a PG shotgun. Also, if you've never fired a very short pistol 12ga., well, you won't like it. A 14"bbl. would be better for a PG AOW I think.

So I posted some on here trying to gather info, and I was pointed to Impact Guns. They sell the Serbu, but they also sell a 14" AOW, a Remington or Mossy, I can't recall, for $400 something --plus the $5 tax. Seriously, if you want a PG AOW, look at this real hard. It isn't as short as the Serbu, but it is a real good deal considering, and honestly, how much and what will you use it for? The backpack idea was one of the reasons I considered it too, up here in WA it seemed like a good backpack piece. Now to convert mine, I'd have been looking at the conversion costs since I don't have access to tools at the time, plus $200 tax to do it. More than the new $400 AOW.

In the end, I decided I'd rather get a suppressor or get my wife the integrally suppressed .22 MKIII she wants. I still have the breacher, plan on duracoating it and selling it I guess. Can't have SBS here, AOW's are okay, but accuracy suffers. I use an M4 for HD because sometimes my shoulder acts up, so the next shotgun I'll get will probably the the Joint Forces Benelli shotgun, I hear it is the best semi auto shotgun for 3gun shooting which is what I would like to use it for. I don't need the breacher, it was a stupid buy, and impulse buy (at least it was cheap) and for the backpack, well, when I built my new M4, I built it just like the military version. 14.5"bbl with a perm. AAC Brakeout/mount to bring it to length. Very short, handy, and light. Also a lot more fun for plinking.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

It seems to me that having to bring a firearm up to one's shoulder and concentrate on iron sights is slower than a PGO with light/laser. Aim the light then see where the laser is pointing. Add to this the natural tendency to look at the attacker and not iron sights and the solution seems natural... to me. It seems (to me) that a bulky stock would only be a hindrance in a situation like that.

I make no claim to being a great shotgunner, but I would take a piece of that action, and I believe I would take your money. Here's why:

having to bring a firearm up to one's shoulder and concentrate on iron sights

A good shotgunner will never see any sights, if he has them at all. He will shoulder the gun and shoot where he looks. He doesn't have to concentrate on anything other than shooting what he is looking at.