Serial Numbers

[Leedavisone]

I have noticed quite a few times, reading the forums and looking at auctions that people are very wary of posting a serial number, but usually call it something like 1234XXX. Is there a reason for this? I am trying to figure out why people would hide serial numbers... any thoughts? - The Phantom






"Fortunately, I keep all my feathers numbered" -Foghorn Leghorn

 

[Special_K]

I have always wondered about this too. I'm still fairly new to the firearm world and it doesn't make much sense!

 

[Geronimo45]

To prevent false reports of theft. How?
Curious George, the gangsta, sees your used Glock by happenstance. Curious George is eligible to buy handguns, we'll say - he's not a felon (yet). He sees your serial number. He can report to the police that somebody stole his Glock with serial number ABRACADABRA - which is really the serial off of your gun. Lo and behold, he notices the picture of your gun! You've got his Glock! You don't know how many past owners the gun had, so it seems reasonable that it may have been stolen at some time. You give Curious George the gun and accept the loss of the few hundred bucks you spent on your gun.

 

[CU74]

You don't need, (or have the right) to know

Wold you post the VIN of your automobile on an internet forum that is open to anyone with access to a computer? I suspect not. Why would you want to post the serial number of one of your firearms on a forum that is most certainly accessed by the BATFE ? (And a BATFE agent may be one of the more benign folks who is trolling this forum.)

Not only do I not post the serial numbers of my firearms, I don't post a list of the firearms I own. Nobody here has the need or the right to know that information.

 

[vynx]

possession is 9/10s of the law ... i doubt curious george could get that to work even in California

 

[BigBlock]

Wold you post the VIN of your automobile on an internet forum that is open to anyone with access to a computer?

Certainly. Nobody can do anything bad with a VIN number. It is openly displayed to the public on every vehicle that has one.

The theft argument is reasonable for firearms, but VINs are totally different.

As to WHY most people won't post the serial, I suspect it is mostly because too many people here are excessively paranoid.

 

[rockstar.esq]

CU74 has a very strong point. Liberal idiots police in California will likely still intervene just to get another "gun off the street".

I once heard a very sad story about a match .22LR pistol shooter who bought some kind of uber accurate pistol. Well apparently the shooters home was robbed and the pistol was among the stolen items. Naturally the shooter filed a police report and an insurance claim. The insurance company paid out for the claim. Several years later the shooter attended a gun show and found a replacement for the long since stolen gun. While waiting for the background check a police officer approached, asked for ID and eventually placed the shooter under arrest. Apparently the gun show pistol was the original gun! After extensive questioning and a lawsuit for insurance fraud the shooter won the case but it was a very expensive and difficult process.

Considering the glut of identity theft going on, I'd consider my guns serial number privileged information. You've got to protect your protection!

 

[Leedavisone]

None of this makes sense

I am still confused. I have no reason to hide a VIN number, and likewise I have no reason to hide a serial number. I just bought a Colt 1911 #3849WMK, had a check done on me, have a receipt from a reputable dealer... what have I to fear? The story about the shooter buying his own gun back doesn't ring true... since they were doing a background check on him, he obviously was the purchaser... the seller would be the one the cops were after, if they were actually after anyone. And any good insurance investigator would pick up on that one immediately. I have an old Winchester shotgun, with no paper trail (I bought it in 1967), but even there, I don't see how anyone could harm be by knowing the serial number... or why they would be motivated to.
Can anyone give me a good legitimate reason? I am not after stories... "I heard about this guy...", but rather logical reasoning.
Kinda reminds me of the banks with their little fingerprint pads for cashers of checks. The tellers say thay there are a surprising number of people who refuse to give a thumb print to cash a check. Man, are people paranoid. Now, my SSN is another thing entirely.

 

[Mortech]

Actually there is a good reason to hide your VIN , there was this car theft ring in Seattle that wrote down VINs and then would give the number to an accomplice that works at a local car dealer that would then cut duplicate keys that were used to steal the car . Its not unusal to see owners of expensive cars to cover the VIN with a piece of paper while shopping at the malls here now .

 

[ZeSpectre]

Okay how about this one.
Gangsta boy buys the same model you have and recuts his serial number to match yours. It's now a valid serial number but any crime gets traced to you.

Kinda the same red-herring as grabbing a handfull of brass from a range and tossing it around a crime scene just to muddy the waters.

Maybe a little far-fetched but if I were going to commit a crime I'd attempt to create as many false leads as possible.

I guess my thinking is along the lines of why chance it.

 

[jerkface11]

To prove that it's simple paranoia start a poll asking how many guns people own. It will be ERASED by the end of the day not locked not complained about JUST GONE. And if you question why the moderator will tell you that if you don't like them enforcing rules that aren't written down you can stop posting here.

 

[cpaspr]

Leedavisone -

Why was he busted? Because the S/N being run through the background check came back as belonging to a stolen gun. Cop gets the particulars as he's headed for the scene of someone trying to sell a stolen gun (which said gun had not necessarily been run through a background check when the gun show seller acquired it). Finds the transaction in progress and, lo and behold, the new buyer is the same guy who first reported it stolen years ago! Yep, that sounds like potential insurance fraud. Now the original owner didn't recognize his own gun, years later, but the cop doesn't know that right off.

Oh, and about that Colt 1911 and the serial number. It isn't hard to fake up a legitimate bill of sale with real serial numbers and a date several years in the past after first looking up the manufacture date (isn't the internet wonderful?) so you can date the bill of sale properly. Age it nicely. Now, file a police report about your "stolen gun" that you hadn't looked at in years ("Honest, officer - it was on the top shelf in the back of that cabinet the last time I got down the molasses to bake some cookies. Guess that was about 2-3 years ago, before my dear old granny died.") Of course you file the report as soon as you notice the theft, but you don't shoot much, and well, who knows how long it's been gone?

Fast forward two weeks. Or months. "Hey, officer! I was trolling this gun related website, thehighroad.org, and saw where some guy just bought a gun that sounded like the one I had stolen. So I compared his serial numbers against my police report, and what do you know? A match! What's that? You'll have an officer in his locale go recover my stolen property and get it back to me? Why, thank you! Thank you very much!"

So, yes, some of us might be a bit paranoid, but there are many scammers out there. Why make it any easier for them?

 

[Leedavisone]

Doesn't work...

Naw... none of this works for me. Nothing rings true. I doubt that someone was arrested while trying to purchase his old stolen gun... the act of purchasing a gun in good faith is not a crime, no matter if the gun is stolen, or not. The background checks are for checking on the status of the gun, among other things, and not for catching insurance fraud. The seller of the gun is the one in the spotlight... any fraud investigator will tell you that. There are a lot of scammers, sure... but they are after the easy things that work. Seems this gun crowd is a very uncomfortable and wary bunch. It's like my mexican friends buying food: if 5 Mexicans go into a Mcdonalds, the first in line will say "Number 3", (for the egg Mcmuffin meal). Each other, in turn will step up and say "number 3". (it's the lack of knowledge... the language thing). If the first one says "give me horse tongue and bull shi... droppings, dame lengua de caballo Y caca del toro", each one in turn will step up and ask for the same thing. Gun people seem to be the same... at least some of them. As for me, I'll pass on the caca del toro.

 

[cracked butt]

As for me, I'll pass on the caca del toro

Me too. If scamming guns by serial numbers has happened, I'm pretty sure it would have been posted everywhere on the internet 10x over already, instead of old wives tales, friend of a friend stories, and urban legends.

 

[TheDisturbed1]

If nothing else, Common Sense... I dont use my real name on here, but someone with the know-how and ability to track purchases can retreive all my info and any gun i have bought from that dealer...

There are a bit too many possible senarios that can happen all too quick, I mean... Why post your Serial # in the first place? It can get as ugly as posting your Social Security #...

All it takes is some idiot to get an idea when looking at your serial number... The possibilty is you losing it forever or getting the heat from someone elses dirt.

 

[Cybrludite]

So you wanna post the full serial numbers of your guns in this thread, or are ya' just chicken?

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I am trying to figure out why people would hide serial numbers... any thoughts?

You asked why, you got the answer why. Nobody said that you had to blot out the serial numbers of a gun that you post. I see guns from dealers on Auction Arms and Gunbroker with full serial #s all the time.
You are right about the likelihood that it would not work to report it as stolen, BUT if someone did! You would be inconvenienced at the very least.
If I went back in time 20 years ago, and told you that you need to shred the papers you toss in the trash, you would have told me to put on a tin foil beenie. However, today all that has changed. Perhaps it hasn't happened, but before 9/11 nobody flew a plane into the Worlds Trade Center.
It doesn't hurt to be careful, right?

 

[Delta608]

Okay how about this one.
Gangsta boy buys the same model you have and recuts his serial number to match yours. It's now a valid serial number but any crime gets traced to you.

Kinda the same red-herring as grabbing a handfull of brass from a range and tossing it around a crime scene just to muddy the waters.

Maybe a little far-fetched but if I were going to commit a crime I'd attempt to create as many false leads as possible.

I guess my thinking is along the lines of why chance it

Thats even more ridiculas than the VIN argument.....

 

[Leedavisone]

Mas de el culo del caballo

I suspect that people are paranoid, or have something to hide. I am not one to post a serial number without reason, but I can see no reason not to, unless I have something to be concerned about or hide. I have sold about 70 cars on Ebay (mostly 1920-1955 vintage), and VIN numbers are posted all the time for virtually every car. If I am buying a pistol over the internet, I want to see the serial number (There is always the chance of a switch if the serial number is not clear). Of course, there are plenty of numbers posted all the time, but enough that are purposely obscured to make me question the motives... and to start this thread.



Fortunately, I keep all my feathers numbered. -Foghorn Leghorn

 

[ATAShooter]

One thing I would like to see is a National website database of guns by brand and serial #'s that are on the stolen list. This way, when you go to buy a used gun, you could run it on the website and see if it is hot. Make it so you don't even put in your name, ect. Don't list names and addresses, just make it so if you punch in a # that is on the list, it tells you to notify the law. If they don't want to post all the #'s for folks to see, then make it a searchable database that just comes back either Yea or Nay. If it comes back Yea, then it gives you a # to call. Alot of our stolen guns could be recovered this way. Not all, grant ya, but some.

 

[BigFatKen]

One thing I would like to see is a National website database of guns by brand and serial #'s that are on the stolen list.

See Canada. They made a useless list of guns by brand and serial #'s only to find out there are dozens (hundreds??) of Winchesters in M94, 30-30 with serial #1 or 2 or.... 500. They will read John Wayne, Roy Rogers, ...... and on but millions must also have the caliber and barrel length to start to be meanful and that does not include mods.

 

[DMK]

I suspect that people are paranoid, or have something to hide.

It's not paranoia if there are people who are out to get you. Not you personally of course, but any 'mark' that they can scam.

1) It's personal information

2) It's none of your business (no need to know)

3) It's probably not likely that you'd be scammed, but we might not have thought of everything. Why take a chance.

4) It's just as easy to type 654xxx as it is to type 654321

 

[MachIVshooter]

Why was he busted? Because the S/N being run through the background check came back as belonging to a stolen gun

They don't check serial numbers during an NICS background check; The check is for the buyer, not the gun. The only info included about the firearm is whether it's a handgun or long gun; no make, no model and no S/N.

BS story.

 

[Zoogster]

.

 

[musher]

BASIC data security principles dictate that the approach you should take to managing the security of information is one of granting access rather than withholding access.

In other words, you don't need to spend a whole lot of time figuring out the various schemes by which some nefarious individual might use information against you, and then decide whether to withhold information based on your evaluation of the risk.

Rather, you begin with the assumption that NO ONE should have access to the information in question, then selectively GRANT access to those who have a genuine need. This relieves you of the need to exhaustively evaluate all the possible exploits of the information in question.

Applying this principle to firearm SN's tells you that when selling/buying/inquiring about firearms, typically blocking out the last 3 or 4 digits still allows folks to determine the year (or even month) of manufacture and other info related to the conversation without putting the actual serial number at risk. Therefore, you should not reveal the full sn.

Sure, you might not be able to think of a scheme by which the info can be used against you...but someone else might.

BTW, I got thrown out of my local pawn shop for writing down a couple of serial numbers for some 1903 rifles I was looking at. My intention was to research the manufacture dates and determine how 'original' they were. The pawn shop thought I was going to report them stolen and, well, steal them.