serious trouble for a local guy who sold a gun to an out of state person

[Cee Zee]

http://www.dailyindependent.com/local/x1783681800/Ohio-man-charged-with-selling-gun-to-teen

The guy is looking at 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for selling a gun to an out of state resident. And that's in addition to charges in the other state he might face for selling the gun to a minor. That's some serious trouble.

I would strongly advise checking the laws about selling guns to people out of state and I would suggest you make sure you know who you're selling to is not an out of state person.

This took place in the town I have mentioned having the flea market where guns are sold all the time. There's always a dozen people set up to sell guns there. It's also the same place where the state patrol told me to carry a gun because everyone else was carrying one. I doubt the guy will get the full dose of punishment there but the laws are written in Columbus where guns are hated pretty much. The fact it was a kid he sold it to won't help him I'm sure. Once the media gets involved things change of course. They won't be able to go too light on the guy now.

Still these are major league penalties we're talking about. I know even the gun shops will take handguns across the state line to deliver it to you. And that's the gun shops in Ky. They have brought me handguns across the river because of this kind of thing.

These penalties sure seem excessive to me. If the guy who bought the gun had been an adult it would seem like persecution instead of prosecution IMO.

 

[hso]

The indictment alleges that on Oct. 4, Stiltner, who was not a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or collector of firearms, as defined by federal law, sold an SCCY Industries 9mm automatic pistol to an individual whom he had “reasonable cause to believe” was not a resident of Ohio, as Stiltner was at the time of the sale.

The youth was 15 at the time of the sale, but the charge is unrelated to the buyer’s age. Miminum ages to purchase and possess firearms are regulated by state laws. Kentucky law prohibits any person under 18 from possessing a handgun, with certain exceptions.
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The sheriff’s department said at the time the youth had purchased the gun from an Ohio man he contacted via the Internet.

He sold a handgun to a minor and a minor not from his state.

Looks cut and dried unless the guy can show the kid presented a fake ID for OH. Without that, and even with it I have trouble believing a 15 year old passing for 18 or older, I can't see any sympathy for this guy in spite of the fact he contacted the police after seeing the story about the kid being arrested after taking it to a HS football game. A 15 year old shows up to purchase a gun and you don't ask for ID? C'mon. OTOH, it sounds like the 15 year old was on the football team and it is possible he's big enough to pass for an adult (that's just guessing how someone would make a mistake instead of intentionally violating the law).

The sheriff’s department said at the time the youth had purchased the gun from an Ohio man he contacted via the Internet.

That's the part that puts a hard knot in my gut.

 

[Cee Zee]

The charges pending so far don't have anything to do with the age of the boy. I expect more charges will come on that later. But I read it was up to Ky to file charges about him selling the gun to a minor. That may have been on another news site.

I have no sympathy for this guy either. He should have known better to sell to a kid. I don't think the kid was on the football team though. Maybe he was but it doesn't mention that. The guy that took the bullets from him was in my class at the school BTW. In fact we played the same position for a while.

My concern was about the severity of the fine considering they didn't even factor in the age of the kid. I think the penalty would have been the same if he had sold the gun to an out of state adult. The article said the charges weren't related to the age of the boy. They didn't say it clearly but it seems that Ky enforces the law about juveniles having handguns. That sounded like Ky would have to prosecute the guy who sold the youth the gun. I don't know that for sure obviously. Still the potential fine and jail time mentioned are not affected by the age of the buyer. They made that clear.

They will send the guy to prison and rightfully so. Selling to a kid will sink him either way. But had he sold to an adult from out of state I can't see a jury from that county giving him a huge punishment. That's just how things go in that place for better or worse. For example I once had a car wreck and my carry gun of that time (the one the state patrolman told me to carry) ended up laying right in the middle of the road. They had to charge me for illegal transportation of a weapon but when I got to court the judge made me pay $100 in court costs but found me not guilty. They are pretty lax in dealing with gun laws there.

Still I think the penalty is absurdly high. How hard is it to fake an ID? The law says face to face sales are legal. How do they expect a regular joe to have the resources to check out the real story of a buyer? I'm sure that's why they push for background checks even on face to face sales but this is America and we would end up doing background checks on friends we have had for life etc.. It sure makes me wonder about buying a gun from someone out of state too. I suspect there is a big punishment for that too. That area has 3 states that come together. Knowing who lives where from one day to the next is not always easy. Even if the person had a legit ID from one state it wouldn't mean they still live there.

BTW I was sometimes mistaken for an adult when I was 12. I was 6' tall at the time. Again this story isn't about the guy being charged for selling to a minor though. It's about selling to someone out of state.

 

[Godsgunman]

Ouch man, that hurts.
I have bought and sold multiple firearms via armslist and when I'm the seller I make sure the buyer is over 21 and a state resident if FTF and they must have an ID on them to prove it, bonus if a CCP. I live 15 minutes from the KS/MO border and will often have MO residents respond to the ad. As easy as it would be to just sell it to someone literally "across town" I've lost potential buyers because they didn't want to follow the law and transfer through a FFL. The loss of a sale doesn't even come close to the potential of getting caught as in this story. Yikes!

 

[Cee Zee]

I certainly think that's prudent thinking Godsgunman. I will be more diligent about selling guns in the future myself. But I rarely sell a gun anyway. I believe this law only applies to handguns though. I'll be checking to make sure about that before I sell any other guns.

 

[BP Hunter]

The only sellers i have sold handguns to were those who presented me thier Concealed Pistol License.

 

[hso]

The guy needed to ask for an ID to establish the stranger was an OH residence. If he didn't get one before selling the gun he's at fault. If he got a fake ID that didn't look legit or the buyer didn't match up with it he's at fault. If he got a fake ID that looked real and the 15 year old matched it he'd made the effort to establish OH residence and a court shouldn't convict him.

If I don't know the person I ask for a driver's license and prefer a carry permit, but then carry permits are pretty common here in TN.

The penalties listed are maximums and odds are that unless the guy is on the radar as an illegal gun trafficker he won't see much of that. He's likely to cop a plea instead of fighting so he gets a felony without fine or time in prison and forfeits all his rights.

 

[PabloJ]

The poster boy for closing the "gun show loophole" really needs to do some time. People should be held accountable for decisions they make.

 

[dogtown tom]

Cee Zee .......I know even the gun shops will take handguns across the state line to deliver it to you. And that's the gun shops in Ky. They have brought me handguns across the river because of this kind of thing.

Uh......... WHAT?????
Any dealer who takes a handgun across state lines to deliver to a buyer is committing a Federal crime. Licensees cannot sell firearm outside the state where they are licensed.

 

[Cee Zee]

The people who take the guns across state lines are licensed in both states. They aren't that stupid.

Again I'm not taking up for that bozo who sold a handgun to a kid. I just think that the penalty for selling one handgun to someone out of state is out of line with the nature of the crime. If the guy sold 100 handguns to people from Detroit for example I could see nailing him to the wall. But 5 years for one gun plus $230,000? I know he isn't likely to get that much of punishment but the fact the law is on the books scares me. When you live a rock's throw from 2 other states this can be a big problem. As I said before what if the ID is legit but the guy just moved out of state and hasn't changed his license? I doubt seriously he would even be charged in my area but there are places where they would go after him like gangbusters (literally). My only point is that the laws seem excessive. Some wacko judge is liable to give someone that penalty for some political reason. IMO it just goes way too far in giving courts the power to ruin a life over one mistake. Heck I know people who killed someone that didn't get a punishment that bad. Lots of manslaughter convictions result in light prison terms with no fine at all. There's just something wrong with that picture.

 

[buck460XVR]

sold an SCCY Industries 9mm automatic pistol to an individual whom he had “reasonable cause to believe” was not a resident of Ohio, as Stiltner was at the time of the sale.

This states that there is cause to believe that Stiltner was well aware the purchaser was from out of state and thus knew the sale was not legal. You roll the dice, you take your chances. He rolled and lost. Time to pay the piper.

 

[dogtown tom]

Cee Zee The people who take the guns across state lines are licensed in both states. They aren't that stupid.

Being licensed in both states does not allow them to deliver the firearm to you.
You said "They have brought me handguns across the river because of this kind of thing."

Licensees cannot do delivery of guns like Pizza Hut does pizzas.

 

[Cee Zee]

Good grief. They sold me the gun in my state. They have a shop in another state. This is a huge operation that sells a whole bunch of firearms. If you think they don't have lawyers checking what they can and can't do you would be mistaken. They've been in business for many decades. I've got an idea they know what they're doing. If you want their number I'll give it to you so you can call them up and argue with them. I have no interest in trying to prove things I am not all that knowledgeable about. I don't think you are either BTW. They are getting away with doing what they do clearly. That means you are missing something in your comments.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Any dealer who takes a handgun across state lines to deliver to a buyer is committing a Federal crime. Licensees cannot sell firearm outside the state where they are licensed. "


Sort of.

There are "dealers" doing business under one name, but with separate corporations and thus separate FFL's in adjoining states. Pick out what you want in the storefront in "State A" and then pick it up in another business location in "State B". The dealer does a FFL to FFL transfer that is invisible to the buyer. No laws broken.




"The poster boy for closing the "gun show loophole" really needs to do some time. People should be held accountable for decisions they make."

^^ This. There ARE criminals that sell guns. They ought to be removed from circulation. Not every guy at a table selling guns is a good guy.


Willie

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[Onward Allusion]

Well, I guess the argument about private sales and no need for ID or paperwork goes out the window, eh?

 

[Reloadron]

Just wonderful and this at a time when the current White House administration is pushing hard for background checks and looking to end private sales of firearms. To further complicate things he sold a handgun to a minor who took the gun where? Just wonderful! I actually hope they make an example of Fredrick Stiltner.

Just My Take....
Ron

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a very similar case here a few years ago.
The wheeler dealer gunshow type had managed to somehow stay behind the Doing Business Without a License dead line, but he slipped up and sold a gun to a minor from out of state.
The punk's parents freaked out and all possible agencies came down on the guy for every possible offense.
He got no jail time, being elderly and maybe a bit feeble minded.

 

[hso]

Do they have gun shops in both states?

Did you take delivery of it in their shop in your state and complete the 4473 there?

If the answer is yes to both of those then all they did was transfer inventory from one shop to the other (and book it out of the one and book it into the other) so you could complete the purchase there.

 

[goon]

Well, I guess the argument about private sales and no need for ID or paperwork goes out the window, eh?

Seems like everyone is all for private sales with no paperwork until someone who shouldn't buy a gun buys one.
Then it's all "we need to hang someone for this!"

 

[JRH6856]

Cee Zee, you said "the laws are made in Columbus" and "this wouldn't be prosecuted in my area." Fact check: He was indicted in US District Court. These are federal charges, not state. "Your area" or "Columbus" doesn't matter. These laws are made in Washington DC.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

The poster boy for closing the "gun show loophole" really needs to do some time. People should be held accountable for decisions they make.

What loophole. Guy is facing jail time and fines.

 

[JRH6856]

Seems like everyone is all for private sales with no paperwork until someone who shouldn't buy a gun buys one.
Then it's all "we need to hang someone for this!"

i'm all for private sales with no paperwork and when something like this happens, someone should be prosecuted. Private sales without paperwork don't have to be illegal and IMO, most of them aren't illegal. But the ones that are illegal can make them all look bad.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

So I live in Texas. If I go visit my cousin in Oklahoma and we go camping and a friend of his wants to buy my pistol and he is 21 but an Oklahoma resident, am I breaking the law if I sell it?

I swear I need to carry an attorney with me to remember all this.

Forget I ask that. I learned a long time ago not to sell a gun because I regret ever selling one I had, and I wish I had it back.

 

[dogtown tom]

Cee Zee Good grief. They sold me the gun in my state. They have a shop in another state. This is a huge operation that sells a whole bunch of firearms. If you think they don't have lawyers checking what they can and can't do you would be mistaken. They've been in business for many decades. I've got an idea they know what they're doing..........

Then get your story straight.
First it was "I know even the gun shops will take handguns across the state line to deliver it to you....."
Doing that is a CLEAR violation of Federal law.

Now...... they have a shop in Ohio.

You go on to say: "......They have brought me handguns across the river because of this kind of thing...."
99.9% of the time when someone says that someone "brought me handguns" it means just that. It is NOT what someone would write if they purchased the handgun in a gun store.
Odd story bro.

Willie Sutton

"Any dealer who takes a handgun across state lines to deliver to a buyer is committing a Federal crime. Licensees cannot sell firearm outside the state where they are licensed. "

Sort of.

Not "sort of" in the least.

There are "dealers" doing business under one name, but with separate corporations and thus separate FFL's in adjoining states. Pick out what you want in the storefront in "State A" and then pick it up in another business location in "State B". The dealer does a FFL to FFL transfer that is invisible to the buyer. No laws broken.

Which is what I said above.....Licensees cannot sell firearms outside the state where they are licensed.

WalMart, Gander Mountian, Cabelas.........have locations all over the country. Transferring a handgun to a resident of another state requires shipping to a licensee in the buyers state of residence.

 

[dogtown tom]

FuzzyBunny So I live in Texas. If I go visit my cousin in Oklahoma and we go camping and a friend of his wants to buy my pistol and he is 21 but an Oklahoma resident, am I breaking the law if I sell it?

You BOTH would be in violation of Federal law. You for selling to someone who is a nonlicensee outside your state of residence.....the Okie for buying a firearm from someone who is not a resident of Oklahoma.
You could be roommates.

I swear I need to carry an attorney with me to remember all this.

Unless the attorney is WELL VERSED in Federal firearms law, he would be useless.