serious trouble for a local guy who sold a gun to an out of state person

[texasgun]

lesson:

- do NOT sell handguns to out of state residents
- it's smart to ask to see an ID to verify age and state

IMHO that guy screwed up BIG TIME.... c'mon... selling a 9mm handgun to a 15yr old who doesn't even live in your State?

If the 15yr old provides a fake ID and you have no reason to believe it's fake... then you are not liable.... I bet in this case the kid produced some form of out of state ID and the seller was dumb enough to continue with the sale....

I don't mind if this guy does time... 15yr olds certainly should not be able to buy handguns in their own or in any state for that matter... and certainly not on "flea markets"

 

[SunnySlopes]

I've lost more than one transaction because the other party was unable, or unwilling, to verify his state of residence.

And others have villified me on this, and other, forums, for requiring paperwork. I think I'll keep it up.

 

[Cee Zee]

Now...... they have a shop in Ohio.

Wrong. I never said that. They have a guy with an Ohio FFL working in their shop in KY would be my "guess". And when I bought that gun I mentioned it was before the whole background check deal. I have bought lots of rifles there since then and there was no problem with my Ohio address.

Again I'm not arguing with you as much as you would love that. You get your head straight and stop trying to make everything into an argument. My story has always been straight. It's not my fault you can't read. BTW they did exactly what I said. They brought me a handgun across the river and gave it to me at the end of the bridge. I know people who buy handguns there still from the state of Ohio. Their shop is in Ky. They work it out somehow. Don't ask me how. I told you already. I don't know. But you seem to want to force me to argue the point anyway. Are you that hard up for entertainment? One more post like the last one and you'll be a member of my "ignore" list. It told you once I don't know how they do it. I just know what they did way back when. I hadn't even thought that it was before background checks until someone mentioned it. I've been buying guns there a long time though. I can't remember what all I have bought there to be honest. It's been more than a few. Some might have been when I still lived in Kentucky actually. That's been over 25 years ago.

 

[gspn]

Know and follow the law. The ATF has a very good website that outlines exactly what you need to do in order to keep everything legal. Whether or not you care to look it up, or care to follow the rules is up to you…but the penalties are stiff.

I can't tell you how many times I've had buyers asking/suggesting/demanding that I do things that are illegal when selling guns online. It's nothing that seems nefarious…they would just rather that I break the law so they can save a few bucks on shipping. Why not right? After all they're not the ones who will go to jail if it's done wrong.

 

[JRH6856]

BTW they did exactly what I said. They brought me a handgun across the river and gave it to me at the end of the bridge. I know people who buy handguns there still from the state of Ohio. Their shop is in Ky. They work it out somehow. Don't ask me how.

Rifles are not handguns. Rifles can be sold out of state. Handguns can't.

Here is an opportunity to do us all a favor. If, as some people suspect, the feds are truly monitoring gun forums, they may have enough info from this thread and this shop may be raided soon. Please keep an eye on it and let us know if it happens.

 

[dogtown tom]

This gets better and better.................

Cee Zee

Quote:
Now...... they have a shop in Ohio.

Wrong. I never said that.

My apologies.

BTW they did exactly what I said. They brought me a handgun across the river and gave it to me at the end of the bridge.

THAT is a serious violation of Federal law and would result in revocation of their FFL at the very least.


While you advise others in your OP to know the law................you don't.

 

[barnbwt]

"This. There ARE criminals that sell guns. They ought to be removed from circulation. Not every guy at a table selling guns is a good guy."

Do they look like the guy at the last gunshow I was at, with a table of about a dozen Hi Points and big sign reading "PRIVATE SELLER --NO NICS/PAPERWORK!"

Not 'engaged in the business' my keester

TCB

 

[Cee Zee]

Gee I could have sworn I said I didn't know the law because I don't sell guns. And the laws were likely very different back then looking back on how long ago it was. If you're an ATF agent you'll have know the name of the business in order to prosecute. That's pretty obvious. And since I haven't said the name of that shop it would be hard for you to.

What I said was that if you intend to sell guns you should learn the laws. I can't even remember the last time I sold a gun to be honest. It's been a good while back.

How this thread got hijacked into a discussion of a local gun shop and their actions I'll never know. Maybe you should start your own thread about it. I don't know how you'll figure out what shop it is I'm talking about.

There will be no more comments about this part of this thread from me.

 

[goon]

Here's the thing -

On any other day some of you would argue that government should have no involvement in gun sales. None. That's a private matter. But today, some guy sold a gun and a bad actor got hold of it and the seller is now all the sudden the most horrific criminal ever.

I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the end-user is responsible for how he uses a firearm. Not the seller, not the manufacturer, not the handgun, and not the scary black rifle with the shoulder thing that goes up.

The end-user decides how he will use a firearm and he is responsible for that.

And the "he sold a gun across state lines" argument... so what? The border between WV and OH is an arbitrary line and the law stating you can't sell a gun to a guy across that line is just as arbitrary. The velocity of a bullet traveling from a Glock 19 is the same whether the gun was bought and sold in OH or sold from OH to WV. It point blank doesn't matter.
The end-user of the gun and what he chooses to do with it is still the only thing that matters in the equation.

 

[medalguy]

Guys a lot of people read these threads and the replies. If incorrect information is given, or illegal processes are explained away as "I guess that's OK to do" and someone decides it's OK for them to do the same thing, they can be looking at a very expensive defense and possibly jail time for following your posting.

If you're not sure of what you're posting in regards to firearms laws, then don't post. People rely on information they find here, from gun laws to reloading data. If I say I got really accurate results by loading my .30-06 with 38.5 grains of Bullseye, should I feel bad if someone uses that data and blows themselves into the next county? Actions have consequences.

 

[JSH1]

Selling through a FFL with background check = always legal.

 

[dogtown tom]

goon ......And the "he sold a gun across state lines" argument... so what?

Seriously?
If fine, imprisonment and the inability to ever possess a firearm again isn't reason enough then knock yourself out.

The border between WV and OH is an arbitrary line and the law stating you can't sell a gun to a guy across that line is just as arbitrary.

Fail.
State borders aren't "arbitrary" and neither are Federal firearms laws.

The end-user of the gun and what he chooses to do with it is still the only thing that matters in the equation.

Uh........what?
Federal law doesn't matter?

 

[Baron_Null]

Seriously?
If fine, imprisonment and the inability to ever possess a firearm again isn't reason enough then knock yourself out.

I don't think that he was arguing that it was not against the law, but rather that it shouldn't be.

Seriously?
Fail.
State borders aren't "arbitrary" and neither are Federal firearms laws.

Despite the complex politics and history involved with the creation of states and their borders, at the end of the day it is creating an essentially man-made line that divides one group of people from another with or without consent. I would agree that "arbitrary" isn't the right word, but the concept of not being able to sell a gun to someone who may, theoretically, live 10 miles away from you because they cross a line that was created because of people who may very well have never met you, let alone lived in your generation.

As for federal firearms laws not being arbitrary, the fact that I can own a rifle with a 16" barrel without a tax stamp being a-ok, but a rifle with a 15.8" barrel being illegal without having to submit paperwork that takes months to process and paying for a tax stamp suggests otherwise.

Uh........what?
Federal law doesn't matter?

Once again, you're arguing the law that exists, goon is arguing the laws that should or should not exist.

 

[JRH6856]

Once again, you're arguing the law that exists, goon is arguing the laws that should or should not exist.

Yes, one appears to be saying "the law exists so we should know what it is." Another seems to be saying "the law shouldn't exist so who cares what it is." And the OP seems to be saying "I don't know what the law is so it really can't affect me."

Meanwhile, the forum has a rule against advising or supporting illegal activities which causes a lot of people to get nervous when possible illegal activites are presented as "no big deal."

 

[goon]

I don't think that he was arguing that it was not against the law, but rather that it shouldn't be.

Exactly.

And additionally, I'm arguing is that first, last, and always, the end-user is responsible for what the end-user does with a gun. Whether a SIG spends its whole life in a sock drawer or gets used to rob a bank, it's not the seller's fault or the gun's fault - it's the end-user's fault.

So we get on THR and we rail against restrictions on private sales... then some of us turn around and support a guy being prosecuted when he just did exactly what they say they support.

Which is it?
If someone wants more government involvement, he or she should just be honest about it. But don't hide behind the "state lines" argument.


And Baron_Null - thank you for helping me clarify my points (whether you agree with them or not).

Yes, one appears to be saying "the law exists so we should know what it is." Another seems to be saying "the law shouldn't exist so who cares what it is." And the OP seems to be saying "I don't know what the law is so it really can't affect me."

Meanwhile, the forum has a rule against advising or supporting illegal activities which causes a lot of people to get nervous when possible illegal activites are presented as "no big deal."

Is that really what you got from what I just said?
If it is, maybe I need to type what I'm saying into Google Translate before I post from now on.

I'm not advocating breaking the law.
I'd prefer to stay out of prison just like the rest of you.
What I am saying is that some of you need to get your head out of the "well that's what they tell me is legal, so that's what must be right" mentality. Laws can be changed and should be based on what is rational, equal, and just. But they'll never be changed unless we stop just accepting arbitrary, pointless ideas as what is right just because someone else tells us that it's right.

 

[Jim Watson]

Rifles are not handguns. Rifles can be sold out of state.

No.
Rifles can be bought out of state from a FFL dealer in accordance with federal and both state laws. An American Commoner may not sell even a long gun to another Commoner in another state.

 

[JRH6856]

Which is it? It's both. Law-abiding citizens should not be exposed to government scrutiny in everything they do just in case they might break a law. But if anyone does break the law should be subject to prosecution.

 

[JRH6856]

Rifles can be bought out of state from a FFL dealer in accordance with federal and both state laws. An American Commoner may not sell even a long gun to another Commoner in another state.

And the discussion I was commenting on was about an FFL dealer selling to someone in another state. :banghead:

 

[Cee Zee]

On any other day some of you would argue that government should have no involvement in gun sales. None. That's a private matter. But today, some guy sold a gun and a bad actor got hold of it and the seller is now all the sudden the most horrific criminal ever.

I think the two different issues have colored the way people feel about this. Selling to a minor is never OK. I don't think anyone here supports that. That's why people want to see this bozo punished.

But he's being charged with selling a gun to an out of state person. (BTW it's KY and OH, not WV and Ohio) People may see that as a law that shouldn't exist. Mainly I see the punishment for that crime as being way out of line with the possible damage it might cause (leaving out that he sold the gun to a kid).

No one here thinks there should be zero laws about gun ownership I would think. It's the degree of punishment that has me concerned here. Whether it should be illegal at all is up for debate too IMO. I know it's the law. I'm not going to break that law. But what if a brother wants to sell a handgun to his brother who happens to live in another state but not more than 2 miles away? Should that be illegal? It is apparently. That's pretty bad IMO. I think there should be some evidence it is an ongoing thing before a person gets prosecuted IMO. I can see where selling 50 handguns to a guy from Detroit is bad idea. But one gun to your brother??? That sure doesn't seem so bad to me.

 

[goon]

Which is it? It's both. Law-abiding citizens should not be exposed to government scrutiny in everything they do just in case they might break a law. But if anyone does break the law should be subject to prosecution.

I'd argue that there are a LOT of laws in this country right now that should be repealed yesterday. Let's take Connecticut for example. Following your thinking, everyone who didn't comply with the latest round of registration and now finds himself a felon under state law should be tracked down and prosecuted.

If you think that, then you may be the only poster on THR who thinks that.

And the discussion I was commenting on was about an FFL dealer selling to someone in another state.

In that case, I apologize. I thought you were referring to my posts. I won't draw you any further into this. I wish I hadn't drawn myself into this in the first place!

But I just see so much hypocrisy running rampant around here and I've never had much of a stomach for it.

No one here thinks there should be zero laws about gun ownership I would think.

No I don't think so either. I think a lot of people here are just in favor of reasonable, common sense restrictions.

(Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.)


I think it best that I try to avoid this conversation for a day or so. It may pan out to be a decent discussion, but right now, my sharing my opinions probably won't help that happen.
Sorry to the Mods if I've caused any offense.

 

[Rarebird]

i'm all for private sales with no paperwork and when something like this happens, someone should be prosecuted. Private sales without paperwork don't have to be illegal and IMO, most of them aren't illegal. But the ones that are illegal can make them all look bad.

You're right, the posts here seem to clamor for excessively harsh punishment for an administrative type "offense." . I remember being on a leave from military service from a hostile fire zone and could not legally purchase beer, cigs or pistol ammo in my home state because I wasn't 21. But it was OK that I can get my a$$ blown away while on duty.

 

[goon]

I remember being on a leave from military service from a hostile fire zone and could not legally purchase beer, cigs or pistol ammo in my home state because I wasn't 21. But it was OK that I can get my a$$ blown away while on duty.

I remember being home on leave and not being able to buy a 1911 at a gun store because I wasn't 21 yet. Just days before that, I'd been trusted with a belt-fed MG and a substantial quantity of high explosive. But all the sudden, because I'd crossed an arbitrary line, I was deemed incompetent to handle a dangerous implement like a 1911.

Anyhow, I get a feeling that too much of my perspective may needlessly inflame things. Take it easy gents.

 

[medalguy]

Goon I went through the same thing as you but many, many years ago. It's really weird, isn't it? I understand. And thank you for your service to our country.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

How hard is it to fake an I.D.?

Faking an I.D. is getting pretty hard now days to fake with the anti counterfeiting methods most states now use. Most are easy to spot when they have been tampered with. The hard part comes when the I.D. is state issued with the wrong persons face on the I.D.. I have lost count of how many minors we busted at the casinos in South Lake Tahoe that had the minors face on the ID and their Brother's or Sister's information. These were Nevada ID's and I guess at the time they were just bringing in the older siblings birth certificate in and getting an I.D. with their picture on it. If the department doing the I.D. was doing their job correctly there would have been allot less false I.D. running around in Nevada. I have went to school with guys that buy the time they were sophomores in high school they would have passed as being in their early to middle twenties. One of my classmates we called old man because by the time we graduated he was almost 19 but he had full beard it was already salt and peppered in his black beard.

Long story short even if the boy could have passed as older and had a false I.D. the seller should have quizzed him on the I.D. to make sure it was legit and that he did in deed live in his home state.

 

[JRH6856]

I'd argue that there are a LOT of laws in this country right now that should be repealed yesterday. Let's take Connecticut for example. Following your thinking, everyone who didn't comply with the latest round of registration and now finds himself a felon under state law should be tracked down and prosecuted.

If you think that, then you may be the only poster on THR who thinks that.



In that case, I apologize. I thought you were referring to my posts. I won't draw you any further into this. I wish I hadn't drawn myself into this in the first place!



But I just see so much hypocrisy running rampant around here and I've never had much of a stomach for it.




No I don't think so either. I think a lot of people here are just in favor of reasonable, common sense restrictions.

(Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.)


I think it best that I try to avoid this conversation for a day or so. It may pan out to be a decent discussion, but right now, my sharing my opinions probably won't help that happen.
Sorry to the Mods if I've caused any offense.

No apology needed, that post was a response to Jim Watson. I've correected the post.

There are a lot of laws could/should be repealed. But that does not mean that one can ignore them and with impunity.

We live in a country whose government, for the past 145 years, has, with increasing diligence, promised to relieve us of responsibility for our actiona or our life decisions if we would just acquiesce to its wishes and live as we are told to live. In pursuit of this goal it has created a code of laws which, if examined as a whole and in detail, is filled with conflicting principles based on contradictory philosophies. It only appears to be coherent because dedicated lawyers and judges sift through the conflicts to find something that works in the moment at hand.

The only way I can live responsibly in such a system--taking total responsibilty for my actions--is if I am aware of the consequences which may result from my decision. Not the least of which is action by the government for failing to do as I am told and deciding to do something else. I could ignore the law, but probably more sooner than later, I will find that I am going to lose something I would not have risked had I known it was at stake. I may not agree with the law, but the law exists. I may seek to change it, but until it changes, it is a factor in everything I do.