Seriously, .22LR as BUG?

[Preacherman]

RyanM, I think you've got this wrong.

The point of a defensive weapon - any defensive weapon, firearm or otherwise - is that it's got to provide the following:

1. Be able to be wielded or used effectively;

2. Be adequate for its purpose (i.e. to defend yourself);

3. Be reliable and trustworthy;

4. Be as concealable and 'carryable' as possible if and only if points 1, 2 and 3 have been satisfied.

A bludgeon or knife can be very reliable, but useless against a BG with a gun. If you have physical limitations, you may not be able to use anything very effectively. You choose your weapons based on all these criteria.

Now, as to the effectiveness of use, I submit that a very small gun is harder to use effectively than something bigger. I've found that I really can't manipulate the single-action hammer on a little NAA mini-revolver with any speed, or get fast, accurate hits to a precise target (and with a .22LR, you'd better be hitting an eye-socket if you want to stop a knife-wielding BG at halitosis range!). On the other hand, a J-frame or something similar, in a reasonable caliber, is much simpler to manipulate.

As for the Kahr and Kel-Tec, some folks swear by them, and I'm happy for them. Personally, I've owned five Kel-Tecs (three P32's and two P3-AT's) and three Kahrs (a MK-9, a P-9 and a PM-9) and I've never been able to get any one of them to pass the two-hundred-round test (two hundred rounds of one's chosen defensive ammo, through that gun, using those magazines, without a single bobble or failure of any kind). That being the case, none of them remain in my battery of carry-guns.

If you're considering a .22LR weapon as a BUG, I think the little J-frame S&W has a great deal to recommend it in terms of ease of use, reliability and effectiveness (the latter enhanced with a Crimson Trace laser grip, which lets one take out ping-pong balls at medium ranges every single time, with practice). It certainly makes sense to me. I'm not going to use a .22LR as anything but a training or plinking gun, but if someone wants to use that caliber for their own reasons, they'd best choose the simplest, most reliable, most effective platform for it . . . and the S&W has it all over the NAA mini-revolvers, IMHO.

 

[RyanM]

I'm not sure I get your point, Preacherman. No offense, but you said yourself

and with a .22LR, you'd better be hitting an eye-socket if you want to stop a knife-wielding BG at halitosis range!

Also, the poster seemed to be saying he was considering .22 LR only because it was available in the NAA mini platform. If he can handle a PM9, he would certainly not be required to use a .22 due to disability or other reasons. But people seemed to think he was looking for a .22, any .22, for a backup, just to use that caliber. Which TFin04's posts do not seem to imply. He was simply asking for opinions as to whether the NAA mini would be an adequate backup gun.

.32 H&R magnum is about as small a caliber as is logical for the J-frame platform, for self defense purposes. .32 long wadcutters would have almost no recoil or blast, but still have stopping power which is acceptable to some (about the equivalent of .380 ball), and the option of moving up to .32 magnum JHPs (about the equivalent of a .380 +P JHP). You also get an extra shot compared to a .38. If someone cannot handle the recoil of a .32 long wadcutter, I honestly do not think they would be able to squeeze the trigger on a J-frame either, and thus would probably be limited to some type of single action target shooting type .22 autoloader.

Now, I'd take a .22 over a pointy stick any day, but I could not, in good conscience, recommend a .22 of J-frame size to anyone as a primary or a 1st backup piece, unless they really were forced to use one due to poor health. And I'd say that .22s, particularly NAA minirevolvers, would be best left to the role of extreme deep concealment, to be used if abducted and stripped of all other weaponry. They could be of particular use to people for whom being kidnapped is a realistic concern. But they aren't very useful for other defensive purposes; even for the role of third gun, there are better choices.

The standard bird's head grip is very compact and makes the gun easy to hide anywhere, but also makes it almost impossible to maintain a firing grip on it in a standup fight, or even worse, while in the clinch or on the ground. The oversized rubber grips (which are only available for the magnum frame models) make the gun immensely easier to use and control, but they increase size consiberably. A 1 1/8" magnum frame mini with the oversized grips would be 5.0" long, and 3.625" high, and weigh a bit over 6 oz. unloaded. In comparison, the P3AT is 5.2" long and 3.5" high, the same size as the NAA. At that point, the mini loses its size advantage, and you'd be much better off with a P3AT, P32, or Colt Pocketlite. Even the .22 LR model with the oversized wooden grips fitted, would be only marginally smaller than a NAA Guardian in .32 or a Seecamp in .32 or .380. 4" x 3.125" for the mini vs. 4.4" x 3.3" for a Guardian vs. 4.25" x 3.25" for either Seecamp.

Now, with the bird's head grip, an LR Mini is probably the smallest useful firearm out there. But the poor retention, poor functional accuracy, and single-action operation would realistically limit it to point-blank discharge behind the ear or at the base of the skull of an non-resisting person; i.e., shooting a kidnapper when they least suspect it. You could certainly get very lucky and hit someone in just the right spot in a stand-up fight, but using a gun with functional sights and better ergonomics would increase your chances exponentially.

So in short, .22s are great for small game hunting, great for target shooting, good for disabled shooters, and good for extreme deep concealment. For primary carry or backup for a person of average health, there are far better choices out there.

I should add that I actually own an NAA mini, plus oversized rubber grips. It's a fun gun, and it does go bang and put holes through stuff. I'm accurate enough with it to put all 5 in about a 4" group at 10 yards. And I have carried it a few times where pointless rules (but not any actual laws) forbade concealed carry, simply because the only other guns I own are too large to go undetected while wearing the required clothing. And also because I'm a hypocrite. When I do carry the NAA, I consider it to be a backup to a small sap and medium sized folding knife which I also carry. Honestly, the only situation I can think of in which I would use the NAA over the sap or knife would be something like a shooting spree, if I were behind the perp and close to cover. If I were willing to own a Kel-Tec, I'd be using that instead. I'm currently trying to save up for a Colt Mustang or Pocketlite to rectify my sans-tinygun status, after which the Mini will be honorably retired from concealed carry duty (if it's not sold for Mustang funds first).

 

[erich w]

I was sugesting the deringer as an ankle gun, if you plan on getting it for hiding it in your pocket or anywhere else for that matter stick with a small revolver with da

 

[Curare]

I have no problem with it.

Then again, I am an annonymous person on the internet with questionable firearms knowledge.

 

[Richard2003]

I had one of those .22 Mag NAA minis.
First of all you have to take out the cylinder to reload it.
It makes a hell of a lot of noise for the size of it, and I don't think it is all that safe with the hammer sitting on the notch they give you. I also could not hit the side of a barn with it but that may be just me.

 

[MCgunner]

Why not carry the NAA? It's so friggin' easy to carry, I carry mine folded in its "holster grip" in a large watch pocket! If you can't carry this thing, you can't carry anything. You don't need no stinkin' ankle holster. I carry the thing everywhere. I hope I don't have to use it in a gun fight, it's never my primary except on rare occasion I've gone to the store or something and forgot my 9mm (hardly ever happens, but once in a while it does). It's so tiny and light and pocketable it goes everywhere with me.

The one thing I've learned to do is dump the ammo every month at least and stuff some fresh loads in it. If you leave it loaded with the same ammo for a long time, you get some failures to fire. With fresh ammo, it's 100 percent. I've never seen a .22LR auto loader I could say that about.

It's pretty amazing the amount of accuracy the little gun has, too. I have made head shots on feral dogs out at 25 yards with it, it can be done, and that was off hand. It's also killed rabbits at 25 to 30 feet and head shot snakes where people on this board say you need "snake loads" (ie shot). It is perhaps the handiest and for sure the most carried firearm I own. If I needed back up for some reason, and by that time I'd better be behind cover, I'm pretty confident I can place my shots if the target is close enough, in the eye socket or somewhere about the head. If I'm within 25 yards, I can do it. If I don't have that little gun and something happens to my primary, I'm in deep do do, or at least deeper than with it. I don't carry a traditional (read large) back up. Heck, my primary is either a Kel Tec P11 or a Taurus M85UL, what most people consider a "back up". Thing is, on rare occasion I may carry a .45 IWB, my KT in a pocket, I STILL have the NAA on me because it's so easy to have it there, I'm never without it! I can actually carry this gun folded in the palm of my hand and you won't see it there. No, it's not a primary self defense gun, but it's a very carriable little revolver and very useful as a tool when you really need it. It's no bigger or heavier than a good pocket knife and the quality of workmanship is amazing. It's built like a little Rolex, maybe better.

 

[Ultraman]

MCgunner, what a gifted educator you are, preach on brother!