Sexism within the Firearms Community

[pax]

Could be that they generally have "better" things to do with their time (than screw around on the Internet while attached to a desk all day). But then, what do I know?

The existence of multitudinous large fora where women comprise the majority of the membership puts the lie to this theory.

pax

"An SEP," he said, "is something that we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That's what SEP means. Somebody Else's Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot." -- Douglas Adams

 

[gwine]

I don't see many women on photography or other such forums, either. Could it be that they aren't as gossipy as men?

Lots of women on art papa, an artist forum my wife belongs to. Her interest in it is fading fast, though. I'll leave off the why.

 

[Barbara]

What, are you kidding? The Cabela's in Buda has tons of women's clothing - or are you just talking camo? I

Yeah, hunting gear. Two racks total..there were more for kids than for women. They have a lot of clothes for women, but nothing different than any department store would carry.

I'm not sure what the answer is. If it was profitable for them to sell more women's clothing, I would think they would, but its a viscious circle..they don't sell them because they don't have them. I don't know hundreds of women who hunt but quite a lot, and I have to assume a lot of them are just buying in the men's department. Unfortunately, the smallest size they carry in men's, a medium, is way to big for me. They have some youth sizes but the youth XLs are too tight, probably because I'm not built like a pre-teen. Anyway, I got a good set that fits, but would have appreciated more selection..there was nothing in orange, for example.

I've also yet to find a trap vest that fits. I'm going to make my own but I see quite a few women shooting trap, so you'd think the market would be there.

 

[djpullen]

Pax, where do I start. I found this particular post from you to be very ironic.

"MachIVshooter ~

Clearly, you have read far more into my posts than I have said, and my attempt to clarify has only left you all the more convinced that I have said things I have not. I really would appreciate it if you would dispassionately re-read the past two pages of the thread, this time assuming friendliness rather than hostility.

Pretty please."

It couldn't be possible that you read too much into others posts now, could it?

Why am I not surprised on this one?

"Husband (a non-confrontational, wishy-washy sort, who rarely gets hot under the collar)"

Is that his nature or was he nurtured that way and by whom?

As a white male, I think I can speak for many others when it comes to sexism and racism. Many of us are getting tired of the attacks against us. If I could go back in time and prevent all racism and sexism, I would but I'll be dam**d if I'm going to take responsibility for attitudes and actions that aren't my own. I don't like being blamed for any slights that you may have received from others. I have discussed issues of race with people of various minorities. Anytime I bring up the question of why is it okay to have a "inserty minority here" month but we can't have a white history month. I always get the same answer. "Because every other month already is white history month". Why can we have BET tv but not WET tv? Let me see if I have this level of reasoning figured out. Well solve the problem of racism and sexism by turning the tables and make the whites and males the brunt of all discrimination (hiring quotas, college admissions, etc.) Just a wee bit hypocritical isn't it?

I'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to women but I'm more than happy to let you be my equal Pax. I trust you signed up for the draft within 30 days of your 18th birthday, never allowed a date to pay your way, etc. Most feminists claim to want equal rights but still want to enjoy many of the perks of being a woman. I once had a classmate tell me that she hit a strange man for holding a door open for her at a store. Being the equal oppurtunist I am, I would have hit the witch square in the jaw and knocked her out. She perceived it to be sexist. I perceive it to be courtesy. I hold the door open for anyone, male or female when the oppurtunity arises.

I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work. Pax, if you can produce more than I can in a given period of time than I can, by all means, you should get paid more. I worked as a welder for over 5 years in my factory. There were very few women welders. Of those that did, the men were always curious to see how well they could weld. I can say that every woman that could weld good was respected. The men that couldn't weren't respected. Part of the job for welding was changing your weld wire when it ran out. We used 60 pound spools or 500 pound barrels. I as a man was expected to change my own wire while a woman wasn't. It is part of the job and a woman got paid the same as I did so why should I have to help her change her wire? I usually did help a woman change wire unless she was one of the "I am woman, hear my roar" types. Then I let her try to "manhandle" that 500 pound barrel by herself.

Pax, what I'm saying here is that you might want to grow thicker skin. Life would be so much better for you if you gave people the benefit of the doubt instead of reading hostility into everything you hear or see. Think of this analogy. A person with good vision is talking to a blind man and sees something interesting. He looks to the blind man and says, "look at this". There are two ways the blind man can take that statement. The guy who can see is a jerk for pointing out his handicap or he can actually take it as a compliment in that for that moment, the guy who can see actually forgot about the blind mans handicap and viewed him as his equal.

Pax, in the meantime, I hope that you will write your congress(male or female - better be neutral here so not to offend anyone) and demand that women have the obligation to sign up for the draft. Why are feminists strangely silent on this inequality? You can't have it both ways.

 

[gwine]

Life would be so much better for you if you gave people the benefit of the doubt instead of reading hostility into everything you hear or see.

Haven't been on THR that long but you should reconsider that line. The key word is "everything." I have read and re-read this thread and am not convinced that pax, or any other woman (or any other minority, for that matter), reads hostility into "everything" that they hear or see. As a middle-age white male I am outside the loop regarding many instances of discrimination, and yet I would be the last to say that we have seen the end of gender, racial, ethnic or any kind of discrimination here in the United States, much less a light at the end of the tunnel (or the tunnel, for that matter.) Everyone experiences some sort of discrimination, but unless you're the someone getting the mistreatment, it's going to be difficult to appreciate what it's like.

 

[Barbara]

I always laugh when people who complain about people complaining about discrimination complain about discrimination.

 

[djpullen]

I just think it is hilarious that with this site, one is afforded the ability to post with complete anonymity, thus being equal to everyone else on here. Out of Pax's 7000+ posts, would anyone want to take a guess as to how many of them pertain to her gender or women's issues? Isn't it ironic to complain that Cabelas only has a few racks of womens hunting clothes compared to the countless racks of mens hunting clothes while at the same time promoting a website that is 90% oriented to women shooters? You don't fix a wrong by using another wrong.

How am I supposed to feel equal with someone when they continually set themselves apart? Everytime I watch a reality show competition, it never fails that one or more of the women will use the "strong female" line and that they want a "strong female" to win. Every time I hear that, I want to
Why not just let the best person win? Ever watch Survivor? How many of them practically prostitute themselves just to get further in the game? Again, you can't have it both ways. I get so fed up with this hyphenated American garbage. If you differentiate yourself from me with this American or that American, are you saying you are my equal? The last time I checked, The United States of America was a soveriegn nation for over 200 years so why is there a fascination with branded Americanism? I don't really know where my ancestors came from and I don't really care. Why would I want to attach the name of another region or country to myself when no other country in the world compares to the US?

Here's a good one from Theodore Roosevelt. It also greatly applies to those that keep perpetuating the male/female divide in the country. Please check out the link. There is more.
http://www.rpatrick.com/USA/americanism/

... There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts "native" before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.

For an American citizen to vote as a German-American, an Irish-American, or an English-American, is to be a traitor to American institutions; and those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic.

 

[dragongoddess]

It couldn't be possible that you read too much into others posts now, could it?

As a woman who has been attacked in the past what a person says and their body language are the clues I need to protect myself or others. So this statement of yours is silly.

I'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to women but I'm more than happy to let you be my equal Pax. I trust you signed up for the draft within 30 days of your 18th birthday, never allowed a date to pay your way

I don't know about Pax but I didn't sign up within 30 days for the draft. I joined in 1981 and spent 13 years in till my health prevented me from fulfilling my duties as a member of the US Army. During my 13 years I had to do things twice as well as the guys just to be considered anywhere near equal and they like you espoused this line about women being equal is no problem. Problem was, it was a problem. They perceived it as a threat to their masculinity if a woman could perform at their level. And I have found that even here its natural to attack/accuse the woman as a liar then to encourage their accomplishments. Its also not the guys. Women can be outright hostile if another woman strives to be an "equal". Other women see that as an attack on their femininity. We just need to work at respecting people for who they are and what they have accomplished not some historical stereotype based on false data.

I am also taking a gentleman to the gun show, his first, this weekend and will be paying his way. I did after all invite him

 

[Barbara]

I don't recall Pax complaining about Cabelas. It was me.

I also didn't accuse them of sexism, I said that I found it frustrating that there were only 2 racks of hunting clothing in the store. It's not as if I suggested they be sued..they're a business. However, they're a business that will be getting some competition if they don't step up to the plate. I base my shopping on places that provide goods and services I want. Cabelas hasn't got much to offer beyond a large selection; their prices are usually high compared to other retail stores. Since they don't sell what I'm looking for, I'm looking for places that do.

 

[djpullen]

dragongoddess, first of all, thanks for your service to our country.

did you demand equal pt test requirements? What was the required amount of pushups for an 18 year old female? 16, if I recall correctly. I had to do a minimum of 42. Before you get all upset and call me a sexist, I see why the requirement is different, but if a feminist wants equal rights, she needs to take all of them. Did you demand that all women in basic training shave their heads like the men had to? Equal is equal is equal. You can't go through the buffet and pick and choose from what should be equal, what shouldn't apply or what should be special treatment.

I spent 3.5 years as an 11M and it was rather nice not having to deal with the pissing matches of the sexes, except when I had to deal with support units or out on the pt running courses.

When I was stationed at Fort Carson, I had to go to Pinion Canyon for 30 days. We saw a woman who was walking in her pts without her shirt tucked in and a guy I was with hollered at her to tuck in her shirt (by the way, I didn't like dress code nazis either) and her immediate response was "I'm a pregnant female, I don't have to tuck my shirt in". If this woman was 30 days into her pregnancy, I'd be shocked because I sure couldn't tell. She didn't mind using the system to her advantage at all.

Another time, my unit was in Hohenfels (if you were ever stationed in Germany, you know where I'm talking about) we were staying in a tent city for task force trainup for Bosnia. An NCO came to our headquarters tent and asked my CO and first Sergeant to provide a 4 vehicle convoy(couldn't go outside of the fence with less than 4 vehicles) so that the women in his unit could go back to the barracks to get showers. He pretty well go laughed out of our tent. There is pretty much a standing rule that women get showers every 72 hours while in the field. Do you think that was fair and did you complain about that? Again, it makes sense to me as I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole next to a woman who has the relatives visiting and hasn't showered in several days. But if you want to complain about equal rights, how is it equal when I don't have the same shower privelages as a woman in the Army? After being in the Infanty for awhile, you don't even worry about changing your underwear if you are going to be in the field for less than a week.

 

[djpullen]

Barbara, that is great. That is how the free market works. If there was a large, profitable market, there would be a much larger selection than what there currently is. It sounds as though you aren't blaming the corporations for being sexist, but many women would. When it comes to business, your money talks and petty differences don't matter. I highly doubt that there is a ceo of a hunting clothing manufacturer who won't produce womens hunting clothing because he( or she) thinks that women belong in the kitchen and have no business holding a gun. It's about the bottom line.

Every time I hear about people complaining how racist nascar is, I ask them why would it make sense for a team and owner not to hire a black driver if he is good. If I were a car owner, I'd actively seek out a black driver that could finish well every race. That driver would do to nascar what Tiger Woods did to golf. Imagine the money that could be made. I think it would be hard even for a racist car owner to turn down the money that could be made from a successful black driver because he is a neanderthal. I guess I better be careful with this analogy as it will be considered exploitation by those who seek to find racism in a box of cheerios.

 

[Barbara]

As far as the military goes? Sure, I agree..women should have to do the same as men. And 40 old men should have to do the same as 20 year old men. They don't now, but I never hear anyone complaining about it.

Kind of like the complaints about affirmative action in college admissions here (which I disagree with) but no complaints about the children of alum being given the same exact breaks (which I also disagree with.)

 

[dragongoddess]

djpullen


I don't know about you but we had those old steel pots for head gear and I remember taking many a bath out of them. Most guys though wouldn't take a shower when offered one.

So I don't know about your unit but ours when in the field didn't have seperate shower runs. If showers were available then the whole unit went. There were no special shower runs for women in our unit and I don't remember any asking for such a privilage.

I also remember during our first foray in Iraq being called in to TOP's office. He wanted all of the Patriot NCO's in his office. There was a need for a E-5 24T over in the sandbox. As TOP asked each E-5 one at a time if he would volunteer. I was amazed at how each of the guys had reasons for not going none of which were valid but they were coming up with some good ones. Finally an E-5 16T said enough of this whining and crying. She would go. So TOP let her go.


As far as the PT tests were concerned it was my goal to max them not just do enough to pass as so many others did. And BTW while I was in the PT standards changed with age. The older you got the lower the standards were. For everyone to include MALES. So what is your point.

Now you are upset because of Army Regs that allowed a woman to not tuck her t-shirt in during PT due to pregnancy. Did you have problem with the regs. I'm quite sure if you were pregnant the Army would have allowed you to run PT with your shirt out.

As for hair length any woman that tried to cut her hair as short as a guys(bald) would end up with an Article 15. So are you suggesting that women should take action that would lead to an Article 15.

You also know as well as I do that in basic hair is cut to Army Regs. Army Regs. So if the Arm Regs. said female hair was to X amount in length in the back fron and side that is what it was cut too. I also remember that guys had hair cut short not bald. Some went that way some kept a little but it was all cut to Army standards. Got a problem take it up with the Army as they write the standards not I.


It was people like you that I had to overcome in the military because of their own insecurity. Its people with attitudes like yours that prevent women from being equal.

dragongoddess, first of all, thanks for your service to our country

You don't mean that. You posted that because you got caught by a former female member of the US Army for talking crap.

 

[Barbara]

Personally, I'm not willing to settle for being some people's equal.

 

[the pistolero]

Isn't it ironic to complain that Cabelas only has a few racks of womens hunting clothes compared to the countless racks of mens hunting clothes while at the same time promoting a website that is 90% oriented to women shooters?

I don't think so. Go back to the title of this thread, "Sexism within the Firearms Community," and the original post. Specifically, these lines from it:

to many women, guns mean "that SOB who abused me and threatened to shoot me if I stood up to him or left".
...
I probably know more feminists personally than most people here. You'd be surprised how many are passionate about self defense. But when you mention guns to most of them they get steely-eyed. Why? They'll talk about the Republicans, the NRA, and right-wing attitudes towards women. To them guns are synonymous with people who despise them as a concept, and the pro-gun side does a darned good job of vindicating that belief.

The fact is, there's a pretty big gender gap in more ways than one within the firearms community and there are myriad ways of closing it. Marketing towards the females out there is one of them. Reaching out to the females is another...and in my humble opinion, a female reaching out to females (such as pax is doing with her web site), especially on an issue such as firearms and everything that can be done with them, is going to have truckloads more credibility with who she's reaching out to than a male would. Of course, this is only true to varying extents, but the gap is there and as someone who would like to see more people embrace firearms as good things that we all have the right to own, I think we all have a vested interest in seeing that gap narrowed or even closed (God, we can only hope) in any way possible. Two wrongs do indeed not make a right, but then I don't think sites like Cornered Cat are wrong. Anything at all that can bring more folks into the gun tent is a good thing. We gunnies need all the help we can get and I think folks like pax provide an invaluable service to us. If only we had more like her...no offense to all you other THR females, of course. We'd like more like you too.

 

[djpullen]

Dragon, I have respect for anybody who pulls their weight, whether they be male or female. Your response to my post proves the point that you are reading sexism into everything. I hear many men and women who love to talk about how good they can do this or that but until they show me, it is all a bunch of hot air. Believe me, I'm not the one who held you down while you were in the military. I guess it is easier to sit back and blame everyone else for your shortcomings because of you perceive something to be discriminating than to ruck up and prove the ba**ards wrong.

Steel pot? Wow, you are old! I have my shield up so flame away. I personally witnessed the nco from the support unit ask my first sergeant (he despised being called top) and co for a shower run. I know that the 72 hour rule wasn't set in stone but it was generally followed when I was in.

As angry as you are about how you were discriminated against in the Army, I just thought you might be consistent and ask for total equality with male soldiers and demand the same standards instead of different ones. I guess being consistant isn't your thing. You hide behind army regs for not having to do the same pt standards or shave your head but I'm sure you'd be okay with an army standard that said men get paid more than women, etc. Again, you can't have it both ways.

Hell, make the old codgers do the same pt standards as well. That's fine with me. I got tired of the old guys who would get a higher score for doing the same amount as me and then put me down for scoring lower. I couldn't stand the old soldier attitude when I was in and that is a lot of the reason I got out. I'm sure you always heard the "back when I was a private, we had to do this or that" line all the time to. I actually had ncos (who were about the most worthless group in the Army) who wished they could still use corporal punishment like in the old days. I always love the logic that because I had to do this, everyone else behind me does as well. Ever get your rank punched into your collar bones? I thought that was the stupidist tradition ever. You stand at the front of the formation when promoted and everyone who out ranks you gets to beat your rank into your chest without the pin backings on them. When it came my turn to "congratulate" a lower ranking soldier who got promoted, I shook his hand and walked on by.

Call me a neanderthal or whatever you want. I don't care because I know it doesn't fit. If you won't accept my gratitude for your service ( I'm grateful for anyone who served, because if it weren't for them, I wouldn't have the freedom to type this) than that is your loss. I don't know what your bitterness towards me is going to accomplish for you. If you want to see a real story of discrimination in the military, watch the movie Proud.

 

[djpullen]

You're right, Dragon, I'm a sexist knuckle dragging neanderthal that hates women so much that my wife carries our checkbook(I couldn't tell you how much is in our account. I trust her to deal with the money). I taught my wife how to shoot and just built an ar15 largely to get her more interested in rifles. the more interested she becomes, the better protected my family will be, more intersecting fields of fire, I get to spend more money on our growing hobby, etc. We both win. She loves shooting handguns. I plan to get a 1911 for her to shoot. I wanted a girl when we decided to have a child and was ecstatic to find out at the ultrasound that we were going to have a girl. I had and still have absolutely no desire to have a son. After the ultrasound and before she was born, I bought her her first rifle. A cricket 22. She will be 5 in Feb. and I'm planning to take her shooting next summer. I plan on building a nice collection for her before she moves out. I also plan on teaching her how to turn a wrench, hunt, fish, etc. I will teach her that she is capable of doing whatever she wants to do.

You are so quick to judge my charactor and heart without knowing me at all because I point out the double standards that exist in the military. I could have just as easily wrote you off as a militant feminist.

"It was people like you that I had to overcome in the military because of their own insecurity. Its people with attitudes like yours that prevent women from being equal."

I don't know about you but I have always known that there is someone out there who is bigger and better at something than I am. I'm far from insecure about my position in life. If words prevent you from being equal, then you truly are weak.

 

[pax]

djpullen ~

I'm a feminist?

pax

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Oh, Deary Me

Lost our way here, have we?

Look, folks, I'm new here, but I'm not new to this phenomenon.

May I respectfully suggest that this isn't helping?

Just guessing now, but it doesn't seem that the ladies are being persuaded. Likewise, the swinging "Richards" don't seem to be either.

What troubles me is that it isn't just the children who get to watch this acrimony, but also the neighbors.

And it doesn't help that this involves people I respect.

Hurts my head.

 

[djpullen]

Went into the local sportsmans warehouse today and it looked like they had about 2.5 racks of womens hunting clothing but that included camo night gowns and camo panties with pink elastic around the waste and legs.

 

[Barbara]

Uh. Yeah. I'm not sure what you'd be hunting that would require camoflauge dainties. I'd settle for gloves that fit..which I did manage to find at Dicks, btw, in the men's department. I don't think they have a women's hunting section.

I really think some of these stores are missing the boat..they may not show big sales but I suspect its because many things end up being purchased in the men's department.

 

[Cousin Mike]

While I could agree with a select few of your finer points, djpullen (your opinion of pax definitely not being one of them) - you lost all credibility with me on that one.

 

[Barbara]

You know, I wonder if this thread wouldn't have been better served by discussion of the problems in general that women face in being involved with firearms. Sexism exists and is a headache, and personally I think needs to be acknowledged, but its kind of a stretch to call all the problems sexist..the lack of decent gear, for instance.

Maybe that was too broad..I dunno.

 

[pax]

Cousin Mike ~

I'm just amused and amazed to discover that I'm a feminist.

I've never said a word about the nature-vs-nurture debate (nor will I, having exactly zero scientific qualifications to do so). I have opined, throughout my history on this board, that what's sauce for the gander should be sauce for the goose as well, which means (among other things) that I don't believe in slavery, for me or anyone else; and the draft is a form of slavery. I'm agin' it, no matter what dangly bits you have or don't have. And yes, my perfectly-useless Congresscritters have heard from me on that subject.

If I were a feminist, I'd be of the i-feminist type -- which is a far long cry from the strawman djpullen decided to knock down in his posts. Much of modern feminism doesn't want my type cluttering up their landscape in any case. (Mike ~ I know you know what my type is; the other folks reading this might have a little research to do. Giggles!)

'Course, to some people, any woman who objects to sex-based insults simply has to be a feminist. I don't self-define as a feminist, never have, and I doubt that even a sizable minority of women would. However, the same folks who think plain common courtesy is politically correct BS also usually believe that only feminists object to rude, sex-based mistreatment.

And meanwhile, the topic is still not feminism vs non-feminism, or nature vs. nurture. It is how we, as a community, speak to and about women. My position is and has been that there are too many sex-based insults on this most excellent of boards; that we can do much, much better; and that we must do better if we wish to win the culture war.

pax

The Right Honorable Gentleman is indebted to his memory for his jests and to his imagination for his facts. --- Sheridan

 

[djpullen]

Barbara, they did have a rack of gloves on top of one of the womens clothing racks that appeared to be smaller. I definitely understand your point about not finding a decent selection of womens camo clothing because until Sportsmans warehouse came, I could fit the entire city's supply or reloading supplies in a foot locker. Specialty stuff is hard to find in smaller cities.

Pax, I went to the Ifeminists site and immediately recognized Wendy McElroys name. I used to frequent Enter Stage Right's website quite a bit and she almost always had an article on it. I always enjoyed her articles. If you are the brand of feminist that Wendy is, then you have all of my respect. I know she argued a lot for the rights of men regarding child custody and domestic violence. I need to start frequenting ESR more often but my internet politics reading comes and goes in spurts. I subscribe to the Federalist Digest also, but haven't had much time to read it as of late.