Shell failure: permanetly jammed bolt

[cabinetman]

Hi all.

I finally got to try duck hunting with two of my buddies and we were having a great time on the coast of Connecticut in the middle of that huge snowstorm. It was great fun.

I have a Stoeger Lugar 12 gauge semi-auto that I've run about 200 shells through since new in January '02. It's a great autoloader and I've enjoyed pheasant hunting with it on numerous occasions. It's new so has a chromed barrel and takes 3" shells.

While duck hunting, we were shooting a "name brand" of factory 3" loads 1575 fps 1 1/8oz #4 shot. They worked beautifully for the distance and wind we were shooting in. I had run about a dozen of them through my shotgun already that morning. Then a good flock of mallards dropped in and I stood to shoot but only got one round off. My shotgun ftf the second. I sat down and examined the problem. Lo and behold, it looks like I had a major failure.

The bolt was jammed 1/2 way back, locked solidly in the receiver. In it's face was the bottom of the shell still in the ejector. Just ahead of the bolt in the space between the bolt and breech and clearly visible was the plastic shell casing all wadded up. Finally, still in the breech was the rest of the high-wall brass. The shot had traveled out of the barrel and the barrel remained crystal clear. There were no obstructions and I was shooting on the level.

I believe that the receiver is toast. There is a small distortion in the outside of the sidewall that is just visible where the bolt was thrown back again the rails.

In my opinion, as the shell fired, its bottom blew out, sending the bolt back with such force that it slammed the bolt back much too quickly and then vomited out the plastic sleeve, through the remaining high-wall brass. This must have occured well before the shot left the barrel as the pressure required to crumple the shellcase and slam the bolt rearward like it did must have been terrific.

I'm planning on contacting the maker of the ammo on Monday morning and then follow up with a lengthly letter and hard photos. I have the original box the shells came in along with one live shell.

I'd very much like anyone's input about this problem. Have any of you experienced anything like this? And, to make this perfectly clear, my shotgun was in perfect, 100% working order and properly lubed and maintained. I'm a C&R and value all of my weapons.

Fortunately, no injuries occured. Standing shoulder to shoulder in a duck boat could have lead to some problems. And, the shotgun absorbed the whack as it was designed to do. I'd like to have the manufacturer of the shell replace it with something comperable. That's all that I ask.

I've attached a photo showing the three components as I saw them. Your advice will be greatly apprecaited.

Rome

 

[HSMITH]

That certainly was an ammunition problem given the failure mode. Pressures must have been INCREDIBLE for that to have happened.

How old were the shells? Were they yours? How many times had that box been hunting? Were they ever wet?

What you had happen can be caused by steel shot that gets wet and rusts into a clump, pressures go way up and something has to give. It usually is a bulged barrel though....

PS, that "color" of shotshell is truly junk in all but the high end target loads, I do not use them and have not since I started seriously working with shotgun patterns and shooting. The loading you were shooting is truly premium priced, and for the same money you can get Winchester Supreme's which are the best out there. For 30% less money the Kent Fasteel is GOOD stuff although not waterproofed.

Winchester steel shot ammunition is waterproofed and is the only one that is. The rest of the makers try to get by with plated shot and other shortcuts, it does not work.

 

[cabinetman]

Hmmmmmmm

Thanks for the confirmation of my opinion about the shell causing this problem.

I can tell you that the box was brand new, never in the elements and that's why I grabbed the next shell in the box and the box itself to see if there was something congenital about these shells. Not being a duck hunter and dealing with 3" highpower shells before, I allowed the other two, extremely experience shooters to supply me with what they felt was a good shell. My buddy and I were shooting 3". The third shooter was shooting 3 1/2" in his Benelli. And, no, I didn't get the wrong shell in the mix as I had my own, unopened box to work from. I just mentioned that because I know that someone reading this post might offer that as a suggestion. Plus, I've got the old sleeve and it's clearly marked 3".

I must tell you that in the past 6 years, this is the second time I've had a factory load fail on me. The first time I was shooting a name-brand .40 caliber S&W load in a Beretta 92 and it blew up in my hand. Again, I escaped with nothing more than damp shorts. The pistol was a paperweight. This experience with the shotgun wasn't as tramatic but could easliy have been. I'm impressed with the manufacture of this shotgun which save me from serious injury potential.

Now, however, I have no 12 gauge to shoot and must deal with the maker of the ammo to see what my options are. Again, stuff happens and if this shotgun had seen thousands of shots over a 15 year period, maybe I'd feel differently. This shotgun, however, was in like-new condition and was really working extremely well for me. While I never shot duck before, I was able to quickly learn the lead and after my first miss, I was hitting on a par with the two pros......until the failure.

Thanks, again. Here's a shot of what this shotgun looks like. Fit and finish were on par with shotguns running three times the price and everyone who shot it loved it.

Rome

 

[sm]

Dirty Chamber

From your description and supported from what I believe I see in your pics, this sounds more like a dirty chamber with possible extractor problems.

Granted some ammo can be out of spec, some ammo if exposed to elements can develop rust spots on case ( brass part that goes into chamber) some chambers are not "long enough" meaning a 3" chamber is actually longer tha 3" , the length of FIRED shell is considered . Some chambers are "tight" meaning a shell fits snug to begin with, after the firing of shell, the shell expands making the shell even more tight in the chamber.

I concern myself with TWO main areas of any gun, any platform, TWO areas which cause the most malfuntions in anything. The Chamber and the extraction process.

With plastic shotshells being fired between the heat/cooling of gases , powder and such chambers condensation naturally occurs. Chambers may not "look" like it but a build up occurs. This build up is 'sticky, gritty, " firea shell, you add more to it until the chamber is tight, it won't let go of the now expanded shell. Force that sucker out and something has to give.

Brass separates from plastic, or if the extractor is wet/frozen it breaks. If extracor is dirty gritty and can't spring and slide over grasp extractore breaks or if trying to extract and wet/frozen/gritty it can't spring open to release, it'll break.

Happens to all action types, be it single shot, Pumps, Auto-loaders, but one can really spend some money on a O/U and SxS.

I may not clean bores, but by golly my chambers are Clean and DRY and my extractors are Clean and Dry.

On your Gun remove bbl , just rub with a dry patch and I bet you get a patch with this plastic fouling.

Clean by taking a bore brush and adding wisps of 0000 ( 4 aught) steel wool, or the finest grit of scotchbright pad...until you try this stick with 0000 steel wool, just twist and turn in the chamber, now use a patch on your finger...I bet you get plastic fouling, now feel the chamber.

One can take and old cleaning rod, put a brush on and with gun assembled open breech and make an bend in the rod that will allow one to clean a pump or semi , insert and few up/down twists and your fine ( assembled). You can buy a
"chamber mate" tool or make three out of a cheap Al cleaning rod.

Another tip is to take an old cleaning and put it in a battery drill, and using the brush with 0000 steel wool to remove plastic fouling ( anything even rust) form chamber to muzzle. Just sowly "drill " from chamber to muzzle.

I've seen this happen many many times, from the heat of the summer to freezing duck blinds. From $40 pawn shop single shots to $30K custome shotguns. It was the dirty chamber and the unique plasticzination that caused it.

We didn't have this so much with the old paper shells, the wax helped chamber feeding and extraction and didn't impede like plastic.

We would keep a chamber brush in the duck blinds, and the clay target ranges. Murphy you know.

Edit:
HSMITH knows his stuff, and I concede he know more about those 'suspect loads' as I haven't waffled and changed my brand preferences or tried the "suspect loads". I use the Winchester stuff as H said. There is a Fed load I've used also.

I tend to find what works and stick with it, the old pattern board and the "ammo must be reliable everytime in said gun" dealie.


HSMITH, dunno what load so to keep an argument from cropping up, here on THR(main the civility) PM me with what that is...I have an idea, but being set in my ways...I don't shop around and try stuff. You may be right about the ammo being the problem...I tend to suspect dirty chambers.

We can agree to disagree...or maybe we are both correct

Hey, either way we've thown some light on the matter, for future thoughts for others.

 

[cabinetman]

Clean, cleaner, cleanest

Hi SM.

I certainly agree with you regarding the breech cleaning. As someone who shoots a LOT of military surplus ammo in all of my WWII semi-auto rifles from around the world, a dirty breech can cause no end of problems with extractions.

When I started to examine this failure, I thought for a moment that maybe the breech was holding the high-wall brass. I simply put my finger in the remains and it slide out smooth as silk. There is nothing in there that would have cause this to occur. And, my shells were all dry as a bone and, frankly, the weather while severe was not rain but a fine, pelting snow. It never reached my receiver.

Each of the items you mention are good causes to examine and when I contact the ammo manufacturer, I'll be well armed to exclude all of these issues thanks to your suggestions. None of them are applicable to this failure, however, and I'm more confident than ever that it was the shell that caused this. As a matter of fact, I just dropped in a new shell into the barrel I just removed. The shell simply falls out if I turn the barrel up. No grit or debris.

Rome

 

[sm]

cabinetman:
I apologize to you if my post offended you, I did not mean to imply any negative on you the owner, the gun, your experience with firearms.

Sometimes I put stuff in for the benefit of new shooters, sometimes I/we don't know each other and "what level" a shooter is on.

Well I'd be curious as to the ammo makers response. You have experience as I related in my post to support your experience in the ammo being at fault and not then chamber.

HSMITH, apologies to you sir, Hey I admit your smarter than I--I've learned a bunch from you. Hey a bunch of folks here smarter than me...doesn't take much to be smarter than me.

I'm going to leave my original post as is, in the event a newbie could use it. Perhaps as part of Dx of a problem for someone else.

Keep us posted.

Again apologies to you both.
[ where's the dunce cap smilie when I need it?]

 

[cabinetman]

Apologies are Absolutely Not Needed!

SM, I apologize. I tried not to sound like some snooty know-it-all because when it comes to shotgunning, I'm only mildly experienced. I meant what I said about your suggestions being valuable. You can't leave any stones unturned. As soon as I read your great reply, I put my finger in the breech and fortunately for me, found it clean as a whistle. My concern was that you were correct and I'd failed to do the proper cleaning job.

Thank YOU for your suggestions. And, yes, I sometimes add stuff that a newbie might find important in the future. I always double and triple check anything I consider a "fact" so that they don't go off in the wrong direction or with the wrong information. This forum is for the exchange of ideas and information. Without posts like yours, we'd not have explored all the possibilities. If I came off in my reply that I was affronted....mea culpa. I simply wanted to ensure you and any other readers that while your suggestions are completely legitimate, I did check and found that I'd done a good cleaning job. Whew! I was worried what I might find when I DID look, btw.

Thanks again. I'm hoping to hear from more of you. I can't believe that no one else has experienced a catastrophic failure such as this.

Rome

 

[sm]

I wasn't offended, I just figured I'd opened mouth and inserted foot --again. I got that drill down pat.

You know where I see people getting into trouble with stuck cases even with clean chambers...yep you guessed it.

Shells used in a pump or semi , not being re-sized when reloading, then "trying" to be used in a O/U or SxS. Basically shells from a chamber bigger/more loose into a tighter chamber. NOT always action specific either. See some loose chambers in O/U, SxS and single shots too. Granted the gas reacts different in different actions and chambers.

Oh I'm around...Dave and others probably hate to hear that...but I'm around.

 

[P95Carry]

[ where's the dunce cap smilie when I need it?]

Will this do Steve!!

............

Don't be so tough on yourself! I reckon in these sorta deals, all info is of both potential interst and usefulness. After all .. it encourages thinkin ... and outside of the box too at times.

This is a thread I have followed but not added to .. already a very useful input has been made. My tuppence tho .... seems it has gotta be ammo related. However ... even in a 3" case .... it'd be hard IMO to double charge for instance .. and still get a full crimp that didn't open up over time. And ... hard to imagine the substitution by a wrong (faster) powder.

So - I am all agog (you don't wanna see me when ''all agog'' - it's ugly!! )to learn how this occurred ... assuming that finally, detective work and feedback will yield a reasult.

 

[sm]

Chris, LOL

Well I kinda expected you to post a dunce cap smilie or Preacherman...but being in shotguns I thought I was safe from you . There I go thinking again .

What are you doing in shotguns? I thought you had a SRH in .454 you were needing to blow stuff up with? What did you do...stick a .410 in the darn thing and the cyl locked up? LOL

And NO I don't have any idea on a recipe to make shotshell loads for that "Hogleg" you brought home. Or did you try my ++PP++ loads in your matchstick shooter and "stuck and burned" something and the missus found out?

Chambers: True story a guy had a really beautiful O/U ( name escapes me) he bought for his 6 month old son. Well...since the boy wasn't using it, his daddy brought it to the range. So I "think" myself as being observant and having some sense of shotguns, he says "Here Steve ,shoot it". So I put my .410 O/U in the gun rack and insert a .410 into this gun...humm something wrong, Safety safety safety alarms are going off, this guy is grinning ear to ear. So I remove the .410 shells from gun, examine chambers, scratch my head,too big for a .410 and too small to be 28 ga. I then decide to read the darn gun's ammo designation.

32 gauge

Laughing he hands me the Fiocchi 32 ga shells which fit. Really neat gun, handled and shot like a dream, powdered targets. Pattern board revealed really great patterns at 25 yds. Yes folks there is a 32 ga , and it is b/t a .410 and 28 ga.

I felt stupid, the only thing I could do to redeem myself was to pull the joke on others as he had me. I had made "expert" by then. ( yeah right)

 

[P95Carry]

What are doing in shotguns?

Sorry Steve .. nowhere is safe from me! <''ya see 'im 'ere - ya see 'im there - - ya see'im freakin everywhere''!! >

I check new posts Steve ... and so it really don't matter which section they are in .. my interest just takes me to wherever. I do quite a bit of shotgunning .... and reload, so ........ broad tastes and all that!

The .454 SRH is now ''red-dotted'' and ready to rock ... trouble is way too much white stuff around so range visit has to wait.

Ain't tried the .410 shell yet!!

 

[sm]

trouble is way too much white stuff around

Bang, bang, bang, bang bang <---- Chris clearing the back walk so can take out the trash, under the disguise of noise of neighbors snowblower...Oh my shouldn't have suggested.

Go make some rubber bullets, play in the basement. I've shot the 45ACP Speer rubber bullets in my gunsmiths warehouse . Just a thought. Primer , case and bullets ...no powder... but good trigger time.

 

[cabinetman]

What about bad brass crimps

Ouuuu.. since there's so much traffic here....

Is it possible that the brass was defective in the crimp? I, too, doubt if there was an increase in the charge as the loaders they use have to be pretty much computer controlled. However, if the brass itself failed because it was defective it could fail under fire.

The real problem I'm having here, however, is that I still haven't heard from ANYONE who has had a shell failure. This can't be that unique, not with all the millions of factory shells out there.

Thanks, all. And, yes I will post my replies from the "maker" of these shells. I'm purposefully not mentioning them as it will not be fair until I find out for sure what's what. For all I know, there have been other failures of this same batch/lot.

Rome

 

[HSMITH]

Steve, don't apologize to me bud, I am guessing too. I will PM you with the load here in a sec.......


Rome, the casehead "failing" is NOT a cause for the gun problems. It may well be a result, but not the root cause. If we all tell the truth here the casehead is there simply for the extractor to grab and be tough enough to pull the case out. It is NOT a structural part of the casehead under firing pressure, the plastic of the hull is all that is needed. I know what most people are thinking but it is true, the only thing that is needed in this instance is a "gasket" to seal the pressure in the bore. The yield strength of the plastic is plenty to do this even with your super stomper 3" loads. All of your factory 12 guage 3" or shorter loads are held to about 12K psi or less, chump change really as far as pressures go, the big 10 is this low also. The 3.5" 12 ga is allowed about 19K psi and the 20 gauge 15K, just to illustrate how low the pressure of the 3" 12 is.

Thinking about this a little though has brought another possibility up in my mind. If the gas system of the gun for some reason did not relieve the excess pressures then you can get the rim of the casehead ripped off and WAY too much bolt velocity that could cause it to jam.

The gas system of the guns that shoot 2 3/4" shells and the 3" magnums must be able to function with the low pressure light target shells (8000ish) yet not get torn up with the high pressure loads (12000ish). To do this they simply "vent" the pressures above what is needed to operate the gun. The system used to vent the pressures is a whole bunch more complicated than I am making it sound and it varies by maker, but you get the idea. I have never even held a shotgun like the one in question, but the more I think about it the more I think it could be a possible cause.

At any rate that was a good looking gun and it sounds like it was working well for you. I hope it gets sorted out soon.

 

[cabinetman]

Thanks, HSmith, for your interesting reply.

I'm torn. Either one or the other has to be the probelm. Either the shell was defective in some way or the shotgun had to be defective in some way. I'm on the fence for both having experienced a bad round in the past as I documented earlier.

A fellow shooter just got off the phone with me and agrees with you. He said that it sounds like the bolt didn't lock 100% of the way home and the "gasket" as you call it wasn't sealed, allowing the pressure to escape. There is a venting system in the particular shotgun, too, that does equalize the high-to-low pressure differences of different shells.

I'm going to mull this over this evening. I've been offered the oppourtunity to have an independent gun smith examine my shotgun and give me his expert opinion as to what happened. I'm going to take him up on it. At least I'll have some additional ammo as to who to approach about this problem. All I know now, however, is that I'm out an autoloader.

Thanks!

Rome

 

[sm]

Hey wait a minute, HSMITH might be onto to something...not sure exactly what...say you guys recall the all plastic shotshells; Active? Everything was plastic including the case head.

[For new people case heads low or high base have NO bearing on the "power" of the shell btw]

Did we not have some folks having a similar problem as Rome in some guns [chambers] using Active shells back then? I didn't have the situation occur, but IIRC it did occur. I'm wondering if the "seal" and pressures aren't I dunno "releasing" as should? Like the timing is off?

Oh heck, you know what I mean?

Oh phooey ,only thing I know that is absolute about shotguns and loads...ain't no absolutes.

Hey another bright idea checking six--ok Where is Correia? Let Larry poke his thumb and fingers around inside the breech and all...word is the boy has a " FEEL" for Dx SG problems....bwaahhhaaa

I've really enjoyed the THR ,... gotta run there is big dude on my six now... feets don't fail me now...distance is safety, distance is safety distance is safety...checking six ...

 

[HSMITH]

LOL, RUN STEVE RUN!!!!!!!!!!

Spit my tea out reading that about Correia, LOL.

 

[sm]

...huff, puff, dart, zig-zag...dang I dunno how Correia speedloads so fast...huff, puff, gasp...I wanted to learn...BUT not this way...zig zag ...huff puff...boy gotta run out of ammo sometime soon...feets are beginning to fail...dart, huff ..puff...

 

[Navy joe]

J.H. christ on a pogo stick! All these posts and you haven't bothered to tell us if you got the duck? If so, that's just an expensive duck, no biggie. If not, you broke a good SG for nothing.

 

[HSMITH]

LOL@Navy Joe, and to think that I thought being away from sailors was a good thing...... It is all about PERSPECTIVE and how that affects you. Part of the training of every sailor whether they like it or not.

Well heck (see, I learned a new word) , vocabulary is NOT everything. GMG2 Smith (in 3 years no less) not reporting for duty SIR!!!!! LOL I miss the Navy on some days, then the glue wears off LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boy howdy am I proud of my service but glad it has passed and I lived LOL!!

 

[cabinetman]

Duck, duck, goose.....

Yeah, I shot 4 that morning before the "failure". It was a surreal enviorment seeing all that weather around us yet, being toasty warm with the 5mm waders and modern fabrics. We had the choice of two spots that suited the weather we were in and selected this one which was ideal, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately for us, however, the ducks decided on the other spot where my guides friends were hunting. They ended up with 18 ducks and 4 geese. So, we had a lot of down time.

The other two guys in the boat with me were commiserating with eachother about how slow the shooting was. I got a good rise out of them telling them that this was the best duck shooting I've ever done in my life! Of course it was also the very first duck shooting I'd done. It only goes up from here. We laughed about that for a while...punch drunk on the massive amounts of black coffee and chicken soup we were injesting at 0700. I'll also tell you one other thing. I've had to pee while wearing waders before but with four layers on covered by neopreme, you really have to allow yourself with more "lead" time to get those layers off before you explode! Just like duck hunting, you've got to add more lead to your shot!LOL. I barely made it.

Rome

 

[Sunray]

"...Standing shoulder to shoulder in a duck boat could have lead to some problems..." Yep, but why would you be so close together? And the problem likely still happened when three guys involuntarily evacuated their bowels.

 

[Correia]

sm, ya'll can run, but you'll only die tired.

 

[cabinetman]

Wow.....

I just got off the phone with the manufacturer. All I can say is WOW to how well I've been treated. I'm very satisfied that this is being taken seriously and "will be made right" in the exact words of the rep I spoke to. A case file has been opened, parts are being shipped to two different departments and photos have been sent. I'll post here with the results.

Rome

 

[sm]

Correia
"UNCLE"
[object lesson is : run-die tired , distance is safety, tennis shoes are good, being able to speed load like Correia is gooder ]

Rome:

Keep us posted if you will. I'm glad to hear "positives" so far. I'm not clear which mfg. though; I'm guessing it's whom imports Stoeger ??.