sheriff's deputy dies in apparent gun-cleaning accident

[shermacman]

LA County sheriff's deputy dies in apparent gun-cleaning accident

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...s/california/northern_california/14225293.htm

INDUSTRY, Calif. - A deputy was apparently accidentally shot to death while cleaning his gun at a Los Angeles County sheriff's facility, officials said Thursday. It was the department's third death in seven days.

A fellow deputy discovered the body of Deputy Paul Wilms, 38, after 5 a.m. Thursday in a sheriff's youth center across the street from the Industry station, said Deputy R.J. Suarez.

Wilms had a gunshot wound to his upper torso, Suarez said.

"It appears he was cleaning his weapon," Capt. Ray Peavy said. "We believe this probably occurred last night. In the course of cleaning his weapon, a round was discharged. At this point, it appears to be an accidental shooting."

God bless this man, his family and his friends; but, what part of cleaning a gun involves chambering a round, dropping the safety, pointing the muzzle at your chest and pulling the trigger?

 

[30-06 lover]

I have a lot of family that are LEOs and I myself have worked as a non-sworn. Most cops handle their guns well enough to shoot a bad guy (taht is is he has cleaned in in the last 5 years and it doen't jam), but some are just dumb (buyy a gun and only shoot to qualify and NEVER clean it). Darwin award nominee.

 

[bogie]

Guys, lots of times the "he was cleaning it and it went off" is used to cover a suicide. I guess the theory is that it is better for the family and all that. The guy may have been torn up over the others...

 

[Standing Wolf]

In plain English: it's impossible to clean a loaded gun. It's possible to reload a freshly cleaned gun and do something stupid.

 

[Strings]

I actually went though and tried cleaning every gun I owned while they were loaded. In every case, they were unloaded (or next to impossible to fire) within a step or two...

Glocks may be able to "accidently shoot yourself while cleaning (don't know: haven't messed with them at all), but most autos* unload during disassembly...

*Colt 1991 Compact, a couple different Berettas, Automag, Mossberg 500, Mini-14 were the "test guns"...

 

[Soybomb]

Does upper torso fit the typical suicide attempt method? Its a good theory but I think there'dbe a head wound most likely wouldn't there? Just my guess though.

what part of cleaning a gun involves chambering a round, dropping the safety, pointing the muzzle at your chest and pulling the trigger?

My completely wild guess would be more like rack gun to eject the chambered round, drop mag (oops), turn in an unsafe direction, try to strip, realize you forgot to pull the trigger on your glock, do so(you did just unload it, you have the round that you ejected), bang. Unsafe handling but I think its plausable. I think a small decocker on a glock would save lives.

 

[Leanwolf]

The issue sidearm of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept., is the Beretta 92FS 9mm. Also, Deputies are authorized to carry "backup" handguns, which are authorized and certified by the Dept., plus, certain other handguns are authorized for off duty carry, but must be purchased by the individual Deputy and the Deputy must qualify with that handgun, as well as his Beretta. All ammunition is dictated by the Dept. It is against regulations to carry non-Dept. issued ammo, 9mm or .38 Spec. in backup or off duty handguns.

I believe that the Dept. has authorized some off duty semi-automatics in .40 S&W or .45ACP for OFF DUTY, but don't know all the particulars.

Qualification is sometimes every month, sometimes every quarter, sometimes every trimester, depending on the Sheriff, and what he wants done.

Every cadet going through the Academy is preached to constantly about firearms safety by the Weapons Training Instructors, the safe handling of the firearms, field stripping, and how to clean them SAFELY. Every cadet will fire at the very least, 3,000 rounds in the Beretta 92FS. Usually a lot more, including off class firing at the Sheriff's ranges.

There is also, in LASD, what is called "Continuous Field Training," for Deputies who are out of the Academy and on the street. This is also required for detectives, and the "administrator" Deputies, clear up through the Sheriff.

Personally -- given that until I hear differently that the Deputy did NOT use his Beretta in the "accident," I'll' assume it was his issue Beretta -- I do not know how he could have been "cleaning" it, loaded, and then pointed it at his chest and pulled the trigger. Even if he used his backup, or another authorized off duty handgun, I still have a problem working out the physical method of cleaning a handgun and having it centerpunch one's chest.

But... accidents happen.

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[buck00]

If there is no suicide note, it is often kinder to the family and friends to declare it an "accidental shooting." We can assume this LEO was either very foolish with firearms or its possible he was checking out.

For a long time they said Ernest Hemingway died while cleaning his shotgun. I actually remember learning that in grade school. Later on they revised this to a self inflicted shotgun blast to the head.

 

[Sheldon]

My immediate first thought was suicide as well. Either way my thought go to the family. I live about 4 miles from that station.

 

[SomeKid]

Glocks may be able to "accidently shoot yourself while cleaning (don't know: haven't messed with them at all)

Hunter, I cleaned by Glock 23 after a range trip today. First step is remove the mag, then rack the slide to eject the chambered round. Now, you point it in a safe direction, and pull the trigger.

Easiest way I see him accidently doing this, is removing the mag, pointing at his chest and pulling the trigger very absent-mindedly. I however have a hard time imagining someone pointing a gun at their own chest and pulling the trigger unless they want to die. My money says either suicide, or extreme stupidity.

 

[campbellcj]

I heard the sad news on the radio this am as well, and also immediately thought "suicide coverup". The story is just too unbelieveable to be anything but that. They didn't try to speculate how one cleans a gun with a chambered round.

Later they added more specifics i.e. the magazine had been removed. But obviously a round was still chambered, there wasn't a mag disconnect safety, and he pointed at a vital body area and pulled the trigger...

Condolences to the family, friends and colleagues.

 

[MSgt B]

There are alot of insurance companies that will not pay for a suicide.

A guy shoots himself, widowing his wife and children. They don't get squat if the insurance company decides he did himself.

A guy who accidently shoots himself while cleaning his gun, at least dies knowing that his family will be financially secure.

Not that I'm condoning insurance fraud or anything....

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In plain English: it's impossible to clean a loaded gun.

In plain English, what is your basis for saying a loaded gun can't be cleaned?

Sure there are guns that can be cleaned while loaded. It may not be safe and the cleaning job be not total but they can be cleaned. For example, a REM 870 shotgun can be cleaned while loaded. The rounds are in the mag tube and the chamber opened up for access to clean.

 

[DevLcL]

I think what everyone is saying is that you can't really clean the inside of the barrel with a chambered round. My money is on an intentional discharge, aimed at the chest to make it appear as if it were an accident. Not only is there the insurance issue, but who really wants to be remembered as 'The guy who killed himself?' In my uneducated speculation, I'd say he was trying to be as honorable as possible, but for one reason or another he didn't think he could go on.

My condolances to those left behind.

-Dev

 

[rayra]

Not only does calling it a 'gun cleaning accident' allow a bit of face-saving, it also ensures Life Insurance pays out.
It's such a cliche it gets written into cop shows all the time.

Just had another ~2days ago, a Los Angeles woman deputy managed to shoot herself 'accidentally' while in her trunk outside the home of her 'female friend who she stayed with quite a bit', another LASD woman deputy.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printed...2655162.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california


The subject of this topic died at his office desk, 48hrs later.


And a week ago, one of their veteran motor deputies died in a road accident.

Been a hard week for the LASD.

 

[Bad Words]

Generally suicide is covered by life insurance, and it is law that says it must be covered in many states. I don't know about CA, but in WA insurance companies have to cover suicides, but not within the first two (I believe) years of the policy being written. I think the thought process is them seeing depression and suicide more as a medical condition than a scam to get money.

As for whether the deputy committed suicide or made a mistake, I guess we'll never know, but the people who found him would know based on whether cleaning supplies were present.

 

[SDM]

"I think a small decocker on a glock would save lives"

I see what you are saying, but paying attention to what you are doing, especially around guns will save lives. The design of the gun is not the problem here. Carelessness leads to mistakes no matter what the activity. It's actually fairly simple to make sure a Glock is unloaded, before you pull the trigger. Will a decocker even work on a striker fired pistol?
I know little about the LE world but if cops are going to be issued Glocks, someone needs to do some training to make sure everyone is aware of how to handle them.

 

[jerkface11]

I didn't realize special training was needed to know not to point a gun at yourself and pull the trigger Glock or not.

 

[Henry Bowman]

but the people who found him would know based on whether cleaning supplies were present.

The absense of cleaning supplies would make one suspect suicide; the presence of them is inconclusive. Maybe he wanted to off himself with a clean gun. Maybe it's as discussed above. I think that you are jumping to a conclusion based on a single clue.

 

[WT]

I seem to recall that the famous medical examiner, Dr. Vincent DeMaio, wrote that he had never found a case where some was killed cleaning a weapon that wasn't actually suicide.

Certainly, there is the insurance issue but there is the reputation of the deceased to consider.

I assume the widow will get the deputy's full salary and benefits for the rest of her life; any children will go to any California university for free; they will get preferential hiring for Ca state jobs, etc.

 

[StopTheGrays]

Generally suicide is covered by life insurance, and it is law that says it must be covered in many states. I don't know about CA, but in WA insurance companies have to cover suicides, but not within the first two (I believe) years of the policy being written. I think the thought process is them seeing depression and suicide more as a medical condition than a scam to get money.

As for whether the deputy committed suicide or made a mistake, I guess we'll never know, but the people who found him would know based on whether cleaning supplies were present.

Insurance may be covered but I do not know about other benefits the LEO had that may not be transfered to a widow or children when a suicide occurred. I think that may be why it is handled as a "accident"

 

[Geno]

Many police in my area have their guns cleaned "professionally"

I was taken back to learn that many of the police in this area take their firearms to a local range/dealer to be 1) "professionally" cleaned in one of those ultrasonic cleaners, 2) inspected, 3) lubricated and reassembled and 4) test-fired.

Now, while on the surface that may sound the Nth degree of professionalism, it simply presents a sense of "I don't know guns well enough to do it myself". It isn't like theyr'e fitting a new barrel to the slide! It's a clean and inspect! Finally, test fire? Give me a break! Do they really think a Glock is THAT likely to fail? The practice detailed above smells of incompetence. Can you imagine the military having soldiers take their firearms in for their regular cleaning?

This example of "accidental death" sounds like suicide.

Doc2005

 

[mfree]

"Will a decocker even work on a striker fired pistol?"

Anything can be made work. Anyhow, Walther P99.

 

[Lupinus]

Can you imagine the military having soldiers take their firearms in for their regular cleaning?

In this day in age do you really have to ask if something that stupid is really possible?

All police officers should have to demonstrait to their supervisor/armorer on a regular basis the ability to-
Keep all shots in center of mass at 25 yards at a reasonable rate of fire (similer to a real life need to shoot, not takng a minute between shots to aim for example)
And know how to properly clean, inspect, lubricate, load, unload, their firearms as well as proper weapon safty if they have to hold someones weapon, such as say an officer having you hand over your ccw durring a traffic stop.

 

[Manedwolf]

The issue sidearm of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept., is the Beretta 92FS 9mm

The first thing you do to clean that one is turn the slide release, and it just comes apart, slide comes off, ready to work on. It's SO easy to strip that I'd not understand anyone NOT just starting with taking the slide off to do it. I don't see how you could shoot yourself with it...