Henry Bowman
Senior Member
And the Brady Bunch gets to pad the safety stats for "gun accidents."
sheriff's deputy dies in apparent gun-cleaning accident
- Thread starter shermacman
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SDM
Member
That is my point, people need to use a little common sense. If a group of officers is not competent enough to handle the gun correctly, they need to be trained (or fired). No matter what caused this, the design of the gun is not to blame. No one wants to take personal responsibility for anything anymore :banghead: , which is what's wrong with the world.
You shoot yourself while cleaning a gun = Gun's fault (need more safeties)
Kid picks up daddy's gun and shoots friend = Guns fault (need more safeties, smart guns)
Bad guy steals cops gun and shoots cop = guns fault (need more safeties, smart guns)
Spill you coffee and get burned = coffee's fault (need warnings on coffee cups)
Drive you car into a tree and get hurt = Car's fault (need more airbags, seatbelts)
mfree,
I didn’t know that about the Walther, thanks for the info. Is the S&W the same way?
DRZinn
Member
Let me guess:
He was the only one professional enough...
He was the only one professional enough...
Yup, but people do dumb things. Instead of training people to rack the slide and pull the trigger, train them to rack the slide and use the decocker. If you leave out a step with the 1st method you get a ND, with the 2nd you get a field stripped gun with a round in the chamber. Ideally we'd need no safety precautions against negligence in our lives but sadly it doesn't always work out that well.
Like the other guy said the P99 quick action has this. The concept would just be allowing the striker to be released and hit the firing pin block instead of pulling the trigger and dropping the firing pin block.
one45auto
Member
Hmmmm....maybe it wasn't an accidental discharge after all. Maybe one of his fellow officers wanted to silence him for good. 
adkelly
Member
Just to clear up something, the weapon was a Beretta 92 according to the LAPD spokesman on the radio today. Also they now are saying the slain female deputy was robbed and they are looking for 2 male suspects. Add that to the officer killed today in a motorcycle accident and the two (one current and one former) LAPD officers that dropped dead during the LA Marathon, it is a pretty rough stretch for the department right now!!
ADKelly, just a slight correction here. They (the three deceased Deputies) are Deputy Sheriffs with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept., not LAPD.
LAPD polices Los Angeles City, while L.A. Sheriff's police L.A. County, including a number of smaller cities in L.A. County who contract with LASD for policing duties.
Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. is the largest Sheriff's department in the world. Give or take, +/-, at any given time, they have 8,100 regular Deputies and 900 sworn Reserve Deputies.
As I stated earlier, the Beretta 92FS is the LASD issue sidearm. Also, yes, LASD Homicide detectives, and Long Beach P.D. Homicide detectives are investigating the female LASD Deputy's death as a robbery/homicide.
FWIW. L.W.
LAPD polices Los Angeles City, while L.A. Sheriff's police L.A. County, including a number of smaller cities in L.A. County who contract with LASD for policing duties.
Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. is the largest Sheriff's department in the world. Give or take, +/-, at any given time, they have 8,100 regular Deputies and 900 sworn Reserve Deputies.
As I stated earlier, the Beretta 92FS is the LASD issue sidearm. Also, yes, LASD Homicide detectives, and Long Beach P.D. Homicide detectives are investigating the female LASD Deputy's death as a robbery/homicide.
FWIW. L.W.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
"Can you imagine the military having soldiers take their firearms in for their regular cleaning?"
==============
They're working on it:
http://www.wmrc.uiuc.edu/main_sections/tech_assist/il_dod_env_part_case_studes.cfm#weapons_cleaner
Automated Aqueous Weapons Cleaning System
Background Information
The Illinois National Guard first became interested automating their weapons cleaning operations as a means of consolidating the hazardous waste generated during weapons cleaning. Rather than having small amounts of hazardous or potentially hazardous wastes generated at each of their 54 armories, waste would be consolidated and controlled at a single location. This would reduce the transportation costs associated with the disposal of the wastes. The Marseilles Training Area was selected as the point for the Automated Weapons Cleaning System since the majority of the units in Illinois familiarize and qualify with assigned weapons at this facility.
Inquiries sent to unit commanders identified that approximately three (3) manhours were spent cleaning weapons after qualification and training at Marseilles. This included an initial cleaning at Marseilles prior to returning to the home armory and two subsequent cleanings during drill weekends.
An investigation into methods other than the standard soldier cleaning resulted in the selection of an aqueous detergent combined with an ultrasonic agitation system. Aqueous cleaners have been used for cleaning grease, oil and dirt from automotive parts for several years. Ultrasonic agitation is a fairly new approach to cleaning where a void is produced in a liquid. When the void comes in contact with a surface, the void collapses with a force of about 400 atmospheres of pressure. Since the void, or cavitation is small, this force is focused on a small area of the surface.
Studies were performed at the Waste Management and Research Center (WMRC) Cleaners Laboratory to determine the most appropriate aqueous cleaner and to determine the optimum ultrasonic frequency. Initial studies were promising, however problems were encountered with removal of the anodizing from the weapon. After several tries, an appropriate combination of aqueous cleaner and ultrasonic frequency was identified that would remove carbon, oil and dirt from the weapon without damaging the finish on the weapon.
WMRC recommended the introduction of a 0.1 micron stainless Steel Ultra Filtration Membrane to reclaim spent aqueous cleaner and a modification to the commercially purchased UF system to allow for cleaning of the membrane without having to remove the membrane from the UF system.
After several generations of designs and changes to those designs, a final design was accepted by the DMA. This designed consisted of rectangular stainless steel cleaning, rinsing and drying tanks large enough to accommodate a rack of 10 M 16 rifles, a forced hot air blower to dry the weapons, a boiler to heat the cleaning and rinsing tanks, two 25 kHz ultrasonic generators with two stainless steel ultrasonic tubular transducers, a 0.1 micron stainless steel ultra filtration membrane system to reclaim spent aqueous cleaner, a membrane cleaning system, air compressors and pressure tanks to supply compressed air to dry the weapons, pumps, plumbing and wiring to tie the system together.
The final system is capable of cleaning up to 80 weapons per hour. Initial testing of this system identified bottlenecks at the weapon disassembly and assembly points.
==============
They're working on it:
http://www.wmrc.uiuc.edu/main_sections/tech_assist/il_dod_env_part_case_studes.cfm#weapons_cleaner
Automated Aqueous Weapons Cleaning System
Background Information
The Illinois National Guard first became interested automating their weapons cleaning operations as a means of consolidating the hazardous waste generated during weapons cleaning. Rather than having small amounts of hazardous or potentially hazardous wastes generated at each of their 54 armories, waste would be consolidated and controlled at a single location. This would reduce the transportation costs associated with the disposal of the wastes. The Marseilles Training Area was selected as the point for the Automated Weapons Cleaning System since the majority of the units in Illinois familiarize and qualify with assigned weapons at this facility.
Inquiries sent to unit commanders identified that approximately three (3) manhours were spent cleaning weapons after qualification and training at Marseilles. This included an initial cleaning at Marseilles prior to returning to the home armory and two subsequent cleanings during drill weekends.
An investigation into methods other than the standard soldier cleaning resulted in the selection of an aqueous detergent combined with an ultrasonic agitation system. Aqueous cleaners have been used for cleaning grease, oil and dirt from automotive parts for several years. Ultrasonic agitation is a fairly new approach to cleaning where a void is produced in a liquid. When the void comes in contact with a surface, the void collapses with a force of about 400 atmospheres of pressure. Since the void, or cavitation is small, this force is focused on a small area of the surface.
Studies were performed at the Waste Management and Research Center (WMRC) Cleaners Laboratory to determine the most appropriate aqueous cleaner and to determine the optimum ultrasonic frequency. Initial studies were promising, however problems were encountered with removal of the anodizing from the weapon. After several tries, an appropriate combination of aqueous cleaner and ultrasonic frequency was identified that would remove carbon, oil and dirt from the weapon without damaging the finish on the weapon.
WMRC recommended the introduction of a 0.1 micron stainless Steel Ultra Filtration Membrane to reclaim spent aqueous cleaner and a modification to the commercially purchased UF system to allow for cleaning of the membrane without having to remove the membrane from the UF system.
After several generations of designs and changes to those designs, a final design was accepted by the DMA. This designed consisted of rectangular stainless steel cleaning, rinsing and drying tanks large enough to accommodate a rack of 10 M 16 rifles, a forced hot air blower to dry the weapons, a boiler to heat the cleaning and rinsing tanks, two 25 kHz ultrasonic generators with two stainless steel ultrasonic tubular transducers, a 0.1 micron stainless steel ultra filtration membrane system to reclaim spent aqueous cleaner, a membrane cleaning system, air compressors and pressure tanks to supply compressed air to dry the weapons, pumps, plumbing and wiring to tie the system together.
The final system is capable of cleaning up to 80 weapons per hour. Initial testing of this system identified bottlenecks at the weapon disassembly and assembly points.
Well, aside from any PRIVATE insurance that he may have had, his family will receive a total of about $350,000 between state of Ca. and federal death benefits for being killed in a duty related death (Dept. P&P requires he keep his gun clean and functional). His wife and any children will also receive full tuition/books to any Ca state university. So if there is any possibility that it was accidental, the Dept. will rule it in favor of his family.
Not the first time and certainly won't be the last that these things happen!
Not the first time and certainly won't be the last that these things happen!
Steve in PA
Member
"Just had another ~2days ago, a Los Angeles woman deputy managed to shoot herself 'accidentally' while in her trunk outside the home of her 'female friend who she stayed with quite a bit', another LASD woman deputy."
Not quite an accident is it now?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-032906deputy_lat,0,3720655.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Deputy's Shooting Death Now Considered Homicide
Richard Winton and Nancy Wride, Times Staff Writers
12:58 PM PST, March 29, 2006
Investigators now say an off-duty Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy who was killed outside a Long Beach home Tuesday was not shot with her own handgun.
Authorities, who first thought she may have accidentally shot herself, now consider the case a homicide.
Maria Cecelia Rosa, 30, was a six-year veteran of the Sheriff's Department. She was found slumped over the open trunk of her car in the driveway of a friend's home in the 2900 block of Eucalyptus Avenue in the early morning with a gunshot wound to her upper body, police said.
Robbery is being considered as a possible motive, although other reasons for the killing have not been ruled out, said Long Beach Officer Jackie Bezart.
"A ballistics report on her gun has indicated the gun had not been fired," Bezart said.
Law enforcement sources said the rounds that killed Rosa were not from her weapon.
Long Beach police said dispatchers received an "officer down" call made from inside the Wrigley neighborhood home about 6 a.m. Moments after finding Rosa wounded in the driveway, officers swarmed the area and conducted house-to-house searches.
Resident Linda Vizcarra said the sound of fire engines awoke her at "6ish" and police came knocking. "They checked my car and told us we wouldn't be able to leave right away," said Vizcarra, a third-grade teacher.
Rosa, who lived in Pomona, worked at the county jail's inmate reception center.
She had been staying with a longtime friend, a fellow sheriff's deputy, and was dressed in casual clothing when the shooting occurred, police said.
A family member identified Rosa's friend as Det. Jenny Martin. Rosa frequently stayed in Martin's three-bedroom home, said Martha Esquivias, Martin's sister.
Esquivias said Rosa and Martin's families were acquainted, and that the two had known each other before they became deputies. The home is also shared by Martin's nephew, Eder Gonzalez, 23, she said.
A native of Sonora, Mexico, Rosa graduated from high school in Gilroy, Calif., in 1993 and joined the Sheriff's Department seven years later, according to deputies. Like many new deputies, she was assigned to jails, working in the area where inmates are received and released.
Family and friends, some of whom huddled just beyond the police tape that blocked entry to Eucalyptus Avenue, said they knew her as "Sessy." They described her as pretty, warm and engaging.
"She was really fun, really outgoing, really friendly," said Armando Garcia, 38, who saw a helicopter shot of the crime scene and came to the street.
Rosa is survived by three brothers and two sisters, deputies said.
Sheriff Lee Baca called the death a tragedy and said the department was mourning the family's loss.
Rosa was the second L.A. County sheriff's deputy to die in less than a week. On Thursday, Deputy Pierre Bain, 45, a 14-year veteran of the force, was killed in an on-duty motorcycle accident in Lancaster. A funeral service for him was held today.
Not quite an accident is it now?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-032906deputy_lat,0,3720655.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Deputy's Shooting Death Now Considered Homicide
Richard Winton and Nancy Wride, Times Staff Writers
12:58 PM PST, March 29, 2006
Investigators now say an off-duty Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy who was killed outside a Long Beach home Tuesday was not shot with her own handgun.
Authorities, who first thought she may have accidentally shot herself, now consider the case a homicide.
Maria Cecelia Rosa, 30, was a six-year veteran of the Sheriff's Department. She was found slumped over the open trunk of her car in the driveway of a friend's home in the 2900 block of Eucalyptus Avenue in the early morning with a gunshot wound to her upper body, police said.
Robbery is being considered as a possible motive, although other reasons for the killing have not been ruled out, said Long Beach Officer Jackie Bezart.
"A ballistics report on her gun has indicated the gun had not been fired," Bezart said.
Law enforcement sources said the rounds that killed Rosa were not from her weapon.
Long Beach police said dispatchers received an "officer down" call made from inside the Wrigley neighborhood home about 6 a.m. Moments after finding Rosa wounded in the driveway, officers swarmed the area and conducted house-to-house searches.
Resident Linda Vizcarra said the sound of fire engines awoke her at "6ish" and police came knocking. "They checked my car and told us we wouldn't be able to leave right away," said Vizcarra, a third-grade teacher.
Rosa, who lived in Pomona, worked at the county jail's inmate reception center.
She had been staying with a longtime friend, a fellow sheriff's deputy, and was dressed in casual clothing when the shooting occurred, police said.
A family member identified Rosa's friend as Det. Jenny Martin. Rosa frequently stayed in Martin's three-bedroom home, said Martha Esquivias, Martin's sister.
Esquivias said Rosa and Martin's families were acquainted, and that the two had known each other before they became deputies. The home is also shared by Martin's nephew, Eder Gonzalez, 23, she said.
A native of Sonora, Mexico, Rosa graduated from high school in Gilroy, Calif., in 1993 and joined the Sheriff's Department seven years later, according to deputies. Like many new deputies, she was assigned to jails, working in the area where inmates are received and released.
Family and friends, some of whom huddled just beyond the police tape that blocked entry to Eucalyptus Avenue, said they knew her as "Sessy." They described her as pretty, warm and engaging.
"She was really fun, really outgoing, really friendly," said Armando Garcia, 38, who saw a helicopter shot of the crime scene and came to the street.
Rosa is survived by three brothers and two sisters, deputies said.
Sheriff Lee Baca called the death a tragedy and said the department was mourning the family's loss.
Rosa was the second L.A. County sheriff's deputy to die in less than a week. On Thursday, Deputy Pierre Bain, 45, a 14-year veteran of the force, was killed in an on-duty motorcycle accident in Lancaster. A funeral service for him was held today.
It happens, though Lee Lapin's solution is more like taking your car in to be detailed and then have a tune up vs. just a normal car wash. It just happens that it's potentially faster than doing it the old way. The M-16 has some fiddly parts that you don't want to mess with regularly. Some parts that just LOVE attracting carbon and be a pain getting clean. Solution? Rather than spend 5 minutes scraping it out, toss it in the ultrasonic cleaner with all the other parts for a couple minutes.
It can be a major time saver, and soldiers just keep getting more expensive. For example, in the Air Force we no longer regularly have our Airment do yard work, because it's cheaper to pay a service/contractor to do it than what the hours and equipment would cost us, even if we somehow manage to make sure they're all legal.
I mean, you're going to put somebody through ~6 months of training, then tell him or her to mow the lawn? It was different when we had enough manning to have some excess hours, but we're pretty tight nowadays.
Manedwolf
member
Like I said. The first step in cleaning the 92, after dropping the mag and checking the chamber, is to release the slide. At that point, it ceases to be a gun, and you CAN'T shoot yourself with it...?
Strings
Member
>The first step in cleaning the 92, after dropping the mag and checking the chamber, is to release the slide<
Heck Manedwolf: forget dropping the mag or checking the chamber for a sec. You pull the slidelatch down, pull the slide assembly off the gun. Even if you left a round in the chamber, you no longer have a gun that can shoot!
Heck Manedwolf: forget dropping the mag or checking the chamber for a sec. You pull the slidelatch down, pull the slide assembly off the gun. Even if you left a round in the chamber, you no longer have a gun that can shoot!
John G
Member
Very sad.
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