Shield - Tiny changes = Big gains

[94045]

Has anyone else noticed how small changes can make all the difference.

The Shield .40 was just evil...
Forget it!

The Shield 9mm was shootable but the slick short grip and short barrel added up to a twisting, muzzle climbing little pistol that I could shoot but not particularly enjoy. I definitely didn't make a habit of shooting +P with one.

Along comes the Shield .45 that's about 0.35" Longer, 0.28" Taller and , 0.04" Wider Grip and a little deeper and longer trigger reach. A litttle better grip texture and a little better trigger.

.40 I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at speed, 9mm +P took a lot of concentration to shoot fast and well. Standard Pressure was an improvement but still not enjoyable.

.45? This simply can't be a similar pistol from the same Manufacturer. Less muzzle climbing than 9 mm + P. Less twisting in my grip and I can actually hit something without spending a half hour in meditation first.

How can such tiny changes make such a huge difference despite a larger cartridge?

All I've got to say is if all you have to go on is the 9mm 1.0 (or please NO the .40 1.0) you owe it to yourself to try the .45. I have no idea why it's this different.

PS Just goes to show sometimes caliber is the least important thing when judging a pistol.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

The 45's velocity is typically much slower.

Since the energy calculation involves Velocity Squared it seems that it must be related.

 

[IdaD]

I like my original Shield in 9mm. The grip texture is a little slicker than I'd like for shooting but on the flip side it's really comfortable to appendix carry and it disappears regardless of what I wear. It recoils more than larger 9mm pistols but I don't find it unpleasant to shoot at all. It doesn't surprise me to read that the 45 version is less snappy because you're shooting a lower velocity bullet out of a little bit larger gun.

 

[HamSlamma]

Correct me if Im wrong,,,,but I thought you couldn't shoot +P in a Shield?

 

[94045]

Correct me if Im wrong,,,,but I thought you couldn't shoot +P in a Shield?

Manual says it may cause more wear and reauire more frequent service. Approved for all Ammo that meets SAAMI Spec (IE Standard and +P but not +P+).

 

[HamSlamma]

Gotcha,,,,thanks

 

[bersaguy]

That's just because 45 is intrinsically better than 9mm

Excuse my while I find some cover

 

[9mmepiphany]

How can such tiny changes make such a huge difference despite a larger cartridge?

Two things:
1. While larger in caliber, the .45ACP is loaded to lower pressure than the other rounds and has always been less "snappy"
2. The timing of the barrel unlocking is different between the "large frame" and "small frame" Shields. This is causes it's recoil to be perceived as more of a push than a snap.

but the slick short grip and short barrel added up to a twisting, muzzle climbing little pistol

If it is twisting in your hand when you are shooting it, you might re-evaluate your gripping technique.

We recently had a 9mm Shield as a "Pick-up" gun at an IDPA match. I didn't have any problems engaging tow paper targets at 7 yards of a steel one at 10 yards with it at speed.

I don't normally carry a Shield, although I am familiar with them from working with clients. In a smaller pistol, I prefer the Kahr CW9, which easily allows accurate 25 yard shots

 

[Jonesy814]

What probably makes you think the shield 45 shoots better is more the cartridge change than it is the slight dimension changes in the gun. Possibly also the more aggressive frame texturing too. I have had a Shield since Oct of 2012 . They will try to twist in your hand. I found a set of Talon grips took care of that issue
A 45 operates at around 20,000 psi while the 9mm is more like 35,000 .That's bound to make a difference in how a gun handles

 

[ATLDave]

The 45's velocity is typically much slower.

Since the energy calculation involves Velocity Squared it seems that it must be related.

But recoil is a function of momentum, not energy.

 

[fxvr5]

I'm having a difficult time understanding how peak chamber pressure affects how a gun handles.

Any rational explanation for this?

 

[ATLDave]

I'm having a difficult time understanding how peak chamber pressure affects how a gun handles.

IT DOESN'T. However, pressure at the time the bullet leaves the barrel does, primarily in the form of blast, which many people's brains interpret as recoil. It's like popping the cork on a champagne bottle... the higher the pressure at the time the cork is popped, the louder the pop will be. But this is a long way from peak pressure. Peak pressure is irrelevant to this dynamic.

Small charges of fast powder often produce peak pressures that are every bit as high as larger charges of slower powder... but can be empirically demonstrated to produce less mechanical recoil, and are generally perceived as being less blasty/flashy. That's because their pressure curves tail off more quickly after peak, whereas the slower powders have a much fatter/longer tail. That's what being a slower powder means.

I will note that some people, including a lot of people who shoot double-plugged, don't really conflate blast below some extreme level as being recoil. I, for one, have never experienced the 45 as being a particularly low-recoil round or "not snappy" or whatever. I find it pushes back just about as aggressively as its momentum would generally suggest.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

But recoil is a function of momentum, not energy.

I was calculating Recoil Energy verses Recoil Momentum. Both of these must equal the forward momentum & energy. Since Energy is what impacts the target and momentum is what keeps it moving thru both would exist in the shooters hand. Which one is felt more ?

Many things can make a gun have a different feel. My ugly as a can be Hogue grips on my GP 100 feel great (if you hide them good with your grip). A gun with an exposed steel back will roll nicely and dissipate recoil. Which one is better ?

Physics also has Impulse involved in energy/ impact collisions. Basically more time is better. This is how Boxers can roll & take a punch and a unibody car crushing is better. It seems that the Energy going into our hand is what we feel much like a punch.

A 38 & 357 shoot the same weight but at drastic velocity differences. Most shooters can enjoyably shoot more 230 grain 45 ACP than they can 125 grain 357 Magnums ripping thru the sound barrier. I did say enjoy. It is also interesting how a light weight 357 Magnum hurts more than an all steel heavyweight revolver. Most like to shoot a heavy gun on the range.

Renting 9mm pistols at a range will let a shooter feel recoil differences. The Recoil Momentum & Energy from the projectile is the same and the gun weight is within an ounce or two. The felt recoil is a perception and based on the shooters body.

This is why i think what we feel in our hand more is Recoil Energy and not Recoil Momentum. Both react on the shooters hand. I just think that the Felt Energy delivered to the hand is Recoil Energy. The Recoil Momentum is what you resit so you are not moved off target.

 

[ATLDave]

I was calculating Recoil Energy verses Recoil Momentum. Both of these must equal the forward momentum & energy.

This is wrong. The gun weighs the same. The only thing that can change is its velocity. It cannot match both momentum and energy in its recoil.

For instance, a 147 grain projectile at 705 fps and a 115 grain projectile at 900 fps have almost precisely the same momentum, but the latter has 20% more energy. Which one is the gun supposed to match? It can't do both.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

This is wrong. The gun weighs the same. The only thing that can change is its velocity. It cannot match both momentum and energy in its recoil.

For instance, a 147 grain projectile at 705 fps and a 115 grain projectile at 900 fps have almost precisely the same momentum, but the latter has 20% more energy. Which one is the gun supposed to match? It can't do both.

Equal in their reaction not in numerical value.
Recoil Momentum = Projectile Momentum
Recoil Energy = Projectile Energy

The Recoil momentum away from the gun (+) is equal to the Recoil Momentum towards the shooter (-).
The same for Recoil Energy, Energy Away (+) = Energy Towards (-).

 

[ATLDave]

Equal in their reaction not in numerical value.

What can this even mean?

 

[Livin_Cincy]

What can this even mean?

The Calculation for Recoil Energy does not Equal the Calculation for Recoil Momentum.

 

[94045]

You can equate to recoil as being caused by the high pressure but in my experience a 9mm 1911 recoils less than a .45 1911. That said, I have never fired a .40 1911 but I do know the 10mm is definitely pretty stought.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

I traded off my 40 cal shield after I got a 9 mm. Not much recoil, and I can shoot it better. Hitting the 8" steel plates at 25 yds with it makes me smile.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

 

[Livin_Cincy]

By next summer you will be able to shoot the wings off of house flies !!!!