Shining a Light on One Cause of Pistol Inconsistency

[murf]

celem,

winchester shows a max of 4.0 grains of autocomp for a 147 gn xtp bullet. 4.7 grains seems a bit high. maybe you should reduce that 147 grain load and work up to an accurate load. then again, those bullets just may be wrong for your gun.

like moxie said, "what works works" (and what don't don't).

murf

 

[32_d3gr33s]

4.3 gr of green dot shot drastically better than 3.9 gr of green dot for me. I dont have pictures of the difference, but at 7 yards, 3.9 looked like yours, but 4.3 looked about 1/2 of the size of your fmj target.

 

[celem]

Thanks for the feedback. I am enroute home from a trip. I'll work up different loads and test again in the next week or two.

 

[WinchesterAA]

I had a great day today after a not so good one.

Maybe it was just YOU, and by the time you got to the 115s you got used to the gun and shot better with it?

 

[Kosh75287]

A couple of questions:
Did you shoot groups 1, 2, and 3, in that order? Was group #1 the first shooting you'd done that day?

It looks like your ability to print tight groups improved as you shot more and more. Try shooting groups with the 3 ammo types in reverse order and see how the groups look.

Your 4.7/Green Dot/125LRN load appears to be a starting load. Have you tried increasing it (in a stepwise progression, 0.1grains per batch) to 5.2/Green Dot/125LRN? If not, you may find that your groups tighten as charge weight increases.

It's certainly possible that your pistol prefers 115 grain projectiles, but there are some experimental confounds you may want to rule out before arriving at any firm conclusions. JMHO.

 

[medalguy]

Bullet size definitely makes a difference. A few weeks ago I was at the range and a man and his son were next to me and appeared to be having some problems with accuracy. Their target was untouched after a magazine full, and the man asked me to take a look at their gun which was a new purchase.

The problem became apparent as I looked over their gear. They had a new .40 caliber Clock pistol but the LGS store clerk had sold them a box of .357 Sig ammo.

 

[celem]

these three targets were shot in order after about an hour and a half of shooting. I shot them specifically as an experiment because of the inconsistency during the shooting. so, no I wasn't warming up on target 3 this was at the end of a long series of shooting.

I shoot 3 times a week for about an hour and a half each time.

 

[Kosh75287]

The problem became apparent as I looked over their gear. They had a new .40 caliber Clock pistol but the LGS store clerk had sold them a box of .357 Sig ammo.

Okay, now THAT is just plain, flat SCAREY! I might overlook the new gun owner not noticing that the caliber on the ammo box didn't match the caliber on the pistol, but where were the heads of the people behind the counter who are ostensibly paid to ASSIST new shooters? I'D be VERY DIFFICULT to live with, after a goof like this.

Now, as to the "warming up" effect, it might STILL be instructive to shoot those groups in a different order, to be sure that there's no confound. I don't know if you'll get groups as nice as you did with the 115gr. jacketed reloads, but I suspect you could shrink the 4.7/Green Dot/125LRN by bumping the powder charge a bit more toward max (5.2 grains, if I recall correctly).

I note, with considerable disdain, that some posts on here deride your marksmanship and/or your choice of 10 yards as a test distance. Ignore them. Each man's progress from "novice" to "marksman" is his own and, in the beginning, shorter distances are more instructive than longer distances. You remark that you shoot three times a week for about 90 minutes per session. That's plenty of range time to get you to whatever skill-level you desire, and speaks of considerably more dedication to the goal than I see in a majority of shooters. You are to be commended.

 

[Tony k]

I know the feeling. A bad day at the range is frustrating, and it affects my confidence when things go really poorly.

So you have three different bullets with two different powders. Are you sure that the problem is the bullet? Both loads with autocomp shot better than the one with green dot. Sure, the one with the 115 grain jacketed is way better than the coated 125grain boolit, but I'd also wonder about the powder. Have you worked up loads with all three bullets but with the same powder? It would eliminate a variable. Maybe you could try working up a load with the 115 grainers over the Greed Dot. If you found an accurate charge with the 115/green dot combo you could be more certain that it's the bullet and not the powder.

Also I agree with Kosh about other posters criticizing your group sizes. Not constructive and not relevant.

 

[Potatohead]

A bad day at the range is frustrating, and it affects my confidence when things go really poorly.

It's crazy how that works-Some days I cant miss what I'm aiming at. I mean, Im hitting the screw holes in the corners of my homemade target stands. And then, and it's usually the next trip after I cant miss, I can't hit anything..

 

[Blue68f100]

We all have been there. This is why it's best to eliminate the human factor as mush as possible. When I'm testing loads I use a rest of all kinds to find the most stable condition. A ransom rest would be a dream but even those require some effort to setup up correctly. When I test pistol loads I use a support under by forearms and wrist as well as the barrel if I can, and I'm setting down. Once I'm satisfied with the loads at short distances I like to shoot 25yrds. You get a much better picture at long distance.

There is no short cut to load development. Once you go through the ladder and find the best you need to work that range and play with the OAL. It does come to play with some guns and some it makes no difference what so ever.

Hang in there. You will find it, it just takes time. But it may not be with the powder/bullet combo your using.

ps. When I testing loads I weight all my charges and use the same mfg/condition brass. Some powders will not meter accurately in some dispenser.

 

[GLOOB]

You're shining the light, but maybe you aren't seeing what's really there.

If you want cast/coated/plated bullets to shoot accurately in 9mm, you more than likely need to open up your cases some more. The Lyman M die is the easy, off the shelf solution for that.

Folks will hit you over the head with advice about slugging your bore. And IF your bore is oversize and you make/buy bigger bullets, you may still not solve the problem, because sized 9mm brass is often too small to fit a REGULAR cast bullet, let alone an oversize one. And flaring with a regular expander die does not solve this problem.

Spend a little money on a proper expanding die for cast bullets, and all your cast/coated/plated 9mm reloads will improve. If that doesn't improve things, then slug your bore. If bigger bullets are in store for you, you will need that Lyman M die even more.

The base of the bullet is where accuracy comes from. Deformed bullets are not accurate. The usual advice about flaring only enough to start the bullet is plain wrong for cast 9mm. You may need to expand the entire area where the bullet is going to sit to get the best accuracy.

OP, here a test. Shoot your cast/coated bullet reloads at 70+ yards (with a really good backstop!). If at longer range, you can't even keep them on the broad side of a barn, then it has nothing to do with your powder, or your crimp, or 0.1 grains here or there. It's that your bullet isn't stabilized due to having a deformed base.

Before I learned this, my most accurate reloads were 115 gr jacketed bullets. Plated bullets were decent, but I noticed an edge with 115 gr jacketed. Cast bullets were obviously less accurate at anything over 10 yards and miserable past 30. After learning this, all my loads are more accurate than me. ALL of the lead fouling went away, too.

 

[celem]

Lyman M die

GLOOB - Thanks for the tip about the Lyman M die as I was unaware of it. It has always concerned me that lead bullets were just too darn large for the normal sized 9mm cases and I end up with bulged case walls that, I suspect, are still getting swagged down when fully seated, resulting in undersize bullets. I have been considering another press dedicated to 9mm lead loading and this die's "slip fit" instead of "belled" expander should help.

Post #6 HERE on Smith-WessonForum mentions an interesting alternative.

 

[murf]

celem,

if you have a caliper and a bullet puller, you can find out for yourself if your bullets are being undersized by your reloading method.

pull it and measure it.

would also slug your barrel. groove diameters can be as large as .358" in 9mm barrels.

murf

 

[GLOOB]

Post #6 HERE on Smith-WessonForum mentions an interesting alternative.

I couldn't read the entire link. But my own "interesting alternative," which I learned on another forum, is to remove the expander plug out of my Lee 9mm flaring die and replace it with the 38S&W plug. I believe it's a mil larger in diamter. And it expands much deeper into the case before it turns the case mouth into a trumpet. Available on Lee's website for something like $3.00.

Using my own cast 9mm bullets, I originally had non-existent accuracy and full bore leading after a single shot. Leading that had to be scraped out in huge strips with a sharpened brass rod. Harder commercial bullets worked meh. I still had leading and poor accuracy, but at least they were good enough for short range plinking.

After changing only the expander, I shoot the same exact WW, tumble-lubed, unsized, home-cast bullet with impeccable accuracy. And the bore is perfectly spotless. I don't clean it, anymore. Ever. And it's a Glock 19, FTR. It's been a few years and several thousands of cast bullets, only, and when you wipe the powder residue out of the bore, it looks brand new.

With the standard Lee 9mm expander, the base of my cast bullet measured as little as .353" when pulled from the case! Be sure to test a variety of headstamps!