Shipping woes

[Euclidean]

So I found someone willing to trade me a 20" upper for the 14.5" upper in my possession I don't really have a use for. Anyway we have worked out the terms in advance to our mutual agreement. I just need to find someone to take my money and ship it.

I went to a local UPS store and bought the materials and asked about insuring it. The clerk asked me what I was insuring and the instant he figured out it was a gun part, he wanted nothing to do with it. I explained to bozo that yes, you can ship a piece of harmless metal. I demanded he show me the law on the books which made it illegal. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I can find the laws regarding shipping a firearm and there's no prohibition against what I want to do.

I asked for the manager when I saw this was going nowhere. The manager did well by me and explained it's not a law, it's a UPS policy. I said your policy sucks. He said I agree and I lose a lot of business because I can't ship any part of a firearm, not even a spring or a pin.

He was kind enough to inform me that I could take it to the local UPS hub and they would ship it there, like it was some magical place with special privileges they might do me this favor.

I informed the man politely I could ship an actual firearm in one piece frame and all at their hub if I wanted to, and that shipping these parts was no different than shipping a toaster.

Yeah, I smell it too.

This is a pain in the rump. If UPS won't ship it, FedEx sure won't. I don't want to use the post office because my local postal clerks are psycho nuts and hassle me about shipping anything. I shipped some knives out once, my God you'd think I was sending a nuclear bomb through the mail. I even demonstrated each knife was in a sheath and double wrapped inside the box and they acted like it was some great favor to take my money.

My USPS does have an automated center, and that would mean not having to talk to an idiot clerk, but I don't know if the 24+" long package will fit in the night deposit box. Also I don't know how much you can insure a package for that way. I don't think you can buy very much insurance at the machine. It used to be that you couldn't get it insured at all on the machine, and the PO staff has told me twice they hate the idea that we can buy insurance without a clerk inspecting the item first.

I may wind up driving 90 minutes one way to go to the UPS hub and probably get told there I still can't ship it.

FYI UPS has delivered pins, springs, holsters, magazines, and a complete AR15 upper to my door before. Had the name of a gun store right on the label too.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

USPS DOES ship long guns. So you should be able to send it there. But I had a lot of trouble last time I tried, though I eventually managed to get them to send it.

Since you are only sending an upper you do not have to disclose that it is a firearm and they are not allowed to ask what you 'have in the box'

 

[Gator]

There is another thread here about the same problem.

1) You CAN NOT ship guns from UPS stores! You have to go the the central hub.

2) In this case you were not shipping a gun, but you ran into the typical UPS employee who has no clue about UPS policies.

3) Why not just send it USPS Priority Mail? Its cheap, and you can get insurance and delivery confirmation.

 

[hotpig]

I had a funny incident with a Fed Ex driver a few years ago. I had a customer order a case of Ranger ammo. Normally I print out a UPS label and hand it off to the first brown truck that I happen upon.

I seldom use Fed Ex because I do not see them in my town and they have no pick up points in my County except the envelope boxes. It happened that I was getting a shipment of ammo from a company that uses Fed Ex. I went ahead and printed a Fed Ex ground label for my customer box.

The Fed Ex guys comes in with a dolly of ammo and leaves it. I hand him my case and I said its labeled and ready to go. He looks at the box and said that he could not accept it.

I must have him one hell of a look. He turned and looked at the ammo that he delivered and then looked at what I was shipping out. After a pause he said I guess I can accept ammo.

He took the case of ammo and left.

 

[Soybomb]

Why do you feel the need to show or tell people what you're shipping?

Package your stuff at home, print your shipping label at home from ups.com and drop it off ready to go. If you need to talk about whats in the box, its $600 worth of machine parts.

Guns or gun parts freak the sheep out, they have no idea what an upper is.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

Fed-Ex sure does ship ammo and long guns. That is how my Garands, my three 03s, and .30-'06 ammo from CMP arrived.
After the third Garand, and the third 1000 round shipment in about three months, the Fed-Ex guy (who lives just a block away from me) gets a smile on his face and says, "Is there something you know that I should know?"

 

[1911 guy]

Box it up at home.

I sent a pistol to a gunsmith last month. I packaged it at home, went to FedEx and got it labeled for shipping. Clerk says since it's insured for more than 100 bucks she needs to "inspect" it. The short answer was "$%#@ you. It's legit stuff going to a legit recipient and it's nothing prohibited from air travel". Kinda interesting that she didn't feel the need to "inspect" the package ahead of me in line. Some people are alive only because it's considered bad form to kill the stupid.

 

[fspitzdorf]

I regularly ship long guns to FFL's via USPS... a non-issue with the local postmaster lady. The first time I shipped a long gun, i politely told her in advance that it was coming so she could look up her rules as i had already done the homework. Upon arrival with the firearm i had a copy of the USPS rules in hand (as well as a signed copy of the FFL) in case she hadn't taken the time, but she had... i opened the box for her to show her that the bolt was out of the firearm and there was no ammunition in the box... we then finished the packaging and after postage for the box dimensions & weight + insurance and signature confirmation i gave her my $23 and walked out... i've shipped 4 more since without a hitch...

On a side note... i had to ship my 686 back to S&W for various reasons... they sent me a prepaid overnight sticker for Fed-ex... guy arrives i hand it to him... inform him of what was in the box... he looks skeptical says he isn't sure he can take it. All i could say was... ummm S&W sent me the pre-paid sticker so apparently someone knows something you don't.... he took it and brought it back a week later when S&W returned it...

I've never been specifically asked what is in the box... i've always been asked if there is anything perishable, fragile, explosive or illegal in the box.... FWIW

 

[Dr. Dickie]

What is also amazing is, when I sent a pistol back to Colt for repairs one time, they returned it to me via UPS. The UPS guy left it on my doorstep!
Bet that won't happen again (this was about 3 years ago).

 

[Blakenzy]

Specifying Contents

Are you breaking the law by shipping a firearm? Shipping firearms to legal recipients is not illegal, eventhough shipping companys may have policies restricting it. So, even if you are well within the law you may encounter a few speed bumps along the way. Usually because of moronic corporate policy or beacuse of the individual stupidity of the clerk at hand.

So, when shipping something that you suspect might freakout the ignorant and uninformed, use tecnical language they will not readily understand. For example, the content of the original post is not a "gun part", it is a "precision machined alluminum alloy upper receiver with a 20" attachment". It's not a lie, your just not using words that get red flags raised as easily.

 

[hagar]

An upper is not a firearm by law. Tell them only if they ask, that it is "machine parts" or tools. Nothing hazardous, liquid or fragile.

 

[hotpig]

I ship guns and ammo every day either by USPS, UPS, or Fed Ex. Nobody ever asks what is in the box. The USPS asks if it is perishable, fragile, explosive.

You can weight the box and print a label from the internet. You never have to ever go to the post office or private carriers place again. Unless you just like to stand in line.

USPS can be left in your mail box to be picked up by your regular carrier. You can schedule the pick up free on the internet or just leave it in or near your mail box. If you do not want to leave a package unattended take it with you and hand it to any carrier you just happen across. No questions asked even if it is insured.

UPS is the exact same way. The internet label does not even ask what you are shipping. It does have a reference line. If I was shipping 2 boxes of the Ranger 9mm pistol ammo I only put the product code and number of boxes down(2 RA9T). It will print even if you put nothing on the line.I have to file insurance claims every once in a while and they are happy with the way that I do it.

Fed Ex is also similar except it is hard to just hand the package off to the first truck that you see. It is like there are several independent companies working under one name. The Fed Ex overnight guy will not accept home delivery or Express packages that I try to give him. He will take overnight or ground shipments. When I see a truck I just walk up to the driver and show him the label. He will take it if he can. If not he tells me what truck to watch for.

If I do have to go to the Post Office or a Shipping center it is no problem. I walk in there with a prepaid package. Their faces light up when I tell them that it is labeled and prepaid. I have made their day because everything is done for them. They smile and say thank you every time.

 

[EOD Guy]

UPS is the exact same way. The internet label does not even ask what you are shipping. It does have a reference line. If I was shipping 2 boxes of the Ranger 9mm pistol ammo I only put the product code and number of boxes down(2 RA9T). It will print even if you put nothing on the line.I have to file insurance claims every once in a while and they are happy with the way that I do it.

It the case of the ammunition you would be violating Federal law by offering an undeclared hazardous material shipment. The minimum civil fine for that is $15,000 a day for each day the package is in transit. That doesn't include any possible criminal penalties.

Yes, small arms ammunition is considered a hazardous material even when reclassed as ORM-D.

For your information, here are the DOT regulations for shipping small arms ammunition:

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 173

173.63 Packaging exceptions

(b) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices. (1) Cartridges, small arms and cartridges power devices (which are used to project fastening devices) which have been classed as a Division 1.4S explosive may be reclassed, offered for transportation, and transported as ORM-D material when packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(2) of this section; such transportation is excepted from the requirements of subparts E (Labeling) and F (Placarding) of part 172 of this subchapter. Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices that may be shipped as ORM-D material is limited to:

(i) Ammunition for rifle, pistol, or shotgun;
(ii) Ammunition with inert projectiles or blank ammunition;
(iii) Ammunition having no tear gas, incendiary, or detonating explosive projectiles;
(iv) Ammunition not exceeding 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifle or pistol, cartridges or 8 gauge for shotshells; and
(v) Cartridges power devices which are use to project fastening devices.

(2) Packaging for cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices as ORM-D material must be as follows:
(i) Ammunition must be packed in inside boxes, or in partitions which fit snugly in the outside packaging, or in metal clips;
(ii) Primers must be protected from accidental initiation;
(iii) Inside boxes, partitions or metal clips must be packed in securely-closed strong outside packagings;
(iv) Maximum gross weight is limited to 30 Kg (66 pounds) per package; and
(v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices and 22 caliber rim-fire cartridges may be packaged loose in strong outside packagings.

Part 172 (Marking)

172.316 Packagings containing material classed as ORM-D

(a) Each non-bulk packaging containing a material classed as ORM-D must be marked on at least one side or end with the ORM-D designation immediately following or below the proper shipping name of the material (Cartridges, Small Arms). The ORM designation must be placed within a rectangle that is approximately 6.3 mm (0.25 inches) larger on each side than the designation.

(b) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable regulations of this subchapter.

 

[mike101]

1911 guy

You were being BS'd. I ship items worth over $100 all the time, and no one has ever asked to inspect the package.

When you ship with UPS, or anyone else, you are always asked what's in the package. When you print out the shipping label online, they still ask what's in the box. In this thread, people are saying you don't have to tell them. Can't they just refuse to take your package, then?

 

[k-frame]

Time in transit and risk of theft

I suspect that shippers are hinky about shipping firearms because of the risk of theft and the accompanying liability. And that may be why FedEx and UPS require shipment from a shipping center - it minimizes the number of people who handle the shipment. At FedEx you HAVE to ship a weapon priority overnight. Again, I think, to minimize the time in transit. They also do NOT want any lettering or labels on the box that indicates it contains a firearm.

I recently bought a revolver from my brother in law in Florida and we followed the procedure that FedEx required. In this case he had to ship to my local FFL gun shop in Georgia. And it went fine.

 

[RNB65]

First, understand that a UPS Store is not really UPS. And a FedEx/Kinko's is not really FedEx. They're both owned subsidiaries which operate by their own set of rules independent of their parent company.

Second, don't ever tell them what you're shipping unless there is some specific policy that requires you to. It's none of their business. Just give them the old "machine parts" general answer as long as it's not a receiver.

 

[busdriver72]

I have shipped guns here locally through USPS. When shipping a handgun there is a form to fill out which they put on file.
The guy that works there I have known for many years, and he knows me. He seemed sort of nervous doing it, though he knew he could and didn't complain. I think working for the USPS makes them nervous...they're so afraid of overlooking one of the zillion rules that burden them down. Once the form got handed to them, it shipped fine.
They absolutely do NOT want anything on the package idicating what may be on the inside.
I've never had troubles shipping a long gun.

 

[White Horseradish]

UPS also requires overnight shipping on guns. Their stated policy, however, is to ship only FFL to FFL or to factory.

Labeling the outside of the box stating there is a gun inside is actually illegal. BATFE website says so.

 

[hotpig]

If you go to a customer counter and they ask you what was in the box and you refused to answer they should refuse to take your package. I would refuse if I was the guy behind the counter.

I prefer to save time by printing my own labels. UPS has a line for reference and I put the product code so that I know, my customer knows, and if needed for claims UPS will know. You should also follow up with the required markings on the box if needed.

One advantage is the drivers will not hesitate when I have ten or twenty boxes of ammo for them to take. A dumbass at the customer counter freaks out until they contact their boss or customer service.

 

[EOD Guy]

I prefer to save time by printing my own labels. UPS has a line for reference and I put the product code so that I know, my customer knows, and if needed for claims UPS will know. You should also follow up with the required markings on the box if needed.

One advantage is the drivers will not hesitate when I have ten or twenty boxes of ammo for them to take. A dumbass at the customer counter freaks out until they contact their boss or customer service.

I'm sorry, but it appears that I misunderstood your first posting about shipping ammunition. I assume that you are properly marking the boxes as to the contents and are just not declaring the contents as ammuntion on the UPS declaration.

 

[Gator]

Their stated policy, however, is to ship only FFL to FFL or to factory.

Not so.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

Shipping Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws. Emphasis added

You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS SonicAir® service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services.

Follow These Packing Requirements
Your packages that contain handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS
Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)

About Documentation and Labeling
When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS, you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
You can only ship your package that contains a firearm from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk
You can use UPS daily pickup accounts to ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On-Call PickupSM, and One-Time Pickup
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS SonicAir® service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for shipping firearms

 

[sigman4rt]

Box it up at home. Label it "Fragile Machine Parts." Done deal. Insure it well. I do it all the time.

 

[Euclidean]

Okay I called the UPS manager back. I felt I should give him a chance to prove to me he was just ignorant and not a jerk. Well I'm convinced he was being a jerk. To heck with UPS, I'll avoid using them whenever possible from now on.

Fedex is a pain due to where I'd have to go to send it off, so I decided to brave the USPS.

Well this time, I came prepared. I know how these people are at least.

When asked what it was, I said "Machine parts". Of course they wanted to know more, so beforehand I typed out a list of everything in an AR15 upper described in plain words.

- One hollow 4140 steel cylinder reamed out to 5.56 mm, 1 in 9 twist rate
- One upper housing with standard attachment rail
- One D shaped carry handle
- Two plastic scales with heatguard

Etc. I don't break it down to every little pin and spring, but had a feeling I would not have to.

When asked what it was, I began to read off this list and got to item #2 before the clerk said "Whatever, that's fine."

Shipped off via USPS with adequate insurance and tracking. I hope the other half of this deal doesn't have the some trouble I did.

I'll be writing UPS a letter which no one will ever read telling them what I think about their policies.

I feel a little slimey if strangely proud. It's true I did not lie and am not responsible that the postal clerks don't know enough about firearms to realize what I was describing to them, but I should be able to call it what it is and still get service. An act of legal commerce should not require such guile.

Next time I'll look into doing it over the internet or something. The thing is, I honestly do not do this very frequently and just didn't think to try that.

I feel like I've done enough to let other people know what happened to me, and hopefully UPS will lose at least a little more business than it would have otherwise.

 

[1911 guy]

What's in the package?

I am comfortable being asked about the safety of the item I'm shipping. Some things are unsafe or illegal to ship by air for good reasons. A crate of aresol cans could prove very problematic in an unpressurized cargo hold. What I do have a problem with is someone nosing into my business. I'm sending legal items to a legal recipient through legal means. If that proves to not be the case (something is done illegally), I'm all for dropping the hammer on the guy mailing cocain to his sixteen year old cousin.

How much business do you think I'd do if I wanted to approve the use of every drive system or gear reducer my company sells? We just check to make sure the recieving company isn't blackilisted by U.S. Trade Dept. (if it's an export) and make sure the funds are good.

 

[busdriver72]

Just put a big label on it that says

There is not a gun in here! Trust me!