Shooting Accident

[smince]

I briefly mentioned this in another post, but haven't seen a thread on it:
http://www.co.yavapai.az.us/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=56208

YAVAPAI COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE
255 East Gurley Street
Prescott, Arizona 86301
Media Relations Office
(928)771-3275

May 6, 2010
Man Unintentionally Shot during Training Exercise
at Gunsite Academy
***
On May 02, 2010, at approximately 10:15 A.M., Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office
deputies were dispatched to the Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona, to assist
Central Yavapai Fire Department (CYFD) with a shooting victim. Deputies learned that
a 50-year-old Florida man had been unintentionally shot during a routine training
exercise.

The training course, which began earlier in the week, involved the victim and three of
his colleagues. The prior evening, this group went through night shoot training and
was then provided instructions for the next days training scenarios. The Sunday training
included a live fire course involving various shoot/don’t shoot scenarios.

On Sunday, the victim had just completed his indoor shooting scenario and was
standing on a “catwalk” above the training area to observe his colleague. The next
student entered the room and fired two rounds into a target. As the student prepared to
engage the next target, he noticed a black silhouette in his field of view and fired a
round. The silhouette was actually his colleague who was watching the training
exercises from the “cat walk.” The “catwalk” area is designated by a red line and
students are told not to engage anything above the line. The round struck the man in
the abdomen. The round was a frangible bullet type used to avoid ricochets.
Gunsite instructors began first aid and notified CYFD, who in turn, contacted YCSO.

The victim was eventually transported by helicopter to John C. Lincoln Hospital for
treatment and surgery. His current condition is listed as good. No charges are expected
against the student.

Gunsite has fully cooperated with YCSO during the investigation. Gunsite Operations
Manager Ed Head said, “This is the first accident of this nature in Gunsite's 34 years of
business.”

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Gunsite Operations Manager Ed Head said, “This is the first accident of this nature in Gunsite's 34 years of business.”

There is a first time for everything, as the saying goes. This is not a risk-free activity.

 

[W.E.G.]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this.

There was some guy standing DOWNRANGE on some elevated platform?

Am I understanding that correctly?

And we yell at people at the far end of the firing line for reaching two feet in front of the firing line to retrieve spent brass, if they do it while the line is hot?

What is some dope doing up on a catwalk downrange?

Maybe it took 34 years to find somebody that stupid.

 

[Jolly Rogers]

Or it only took Gunsite 34 years to stop the practice during drills.
Joe

 

[Warhawk83]

I may be wrong,but from the description of the catwalk area,it may be for observation even though it is downrange.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Does it make us feel better to call these events "accidents" or what? The student intentionally fired his gun at the silhouette. There was NO accident. It was not an equipment malfunction.

The student engaged a target that was out of bounds - not an accident

The student shot at a target he did not identify - not an accident

Gunsite Operations Manager Ed Head said, “This is the first accident of this nature in Gunsite's 34 years of business.”

What is some dope doing up on a catwalk downrange?

Maybe it took 34 years to find somebody that stupid.

Why did Gunsite allow anybody to be on the catwalk?

Yep, that may be the first time one student shot another student on the catwalk.

As for stupid students, back in March of 2004, a Gunsite student shot and killed his best friend while practicing their draws in their hotel room. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=72614&highlight=greg+prophet

 

[buck460XVR]

Or it only took Gunsite 34 years to stop the practice during drills.

Seems to me it was just a matter of time before something like this happened. Puttin' inexperienced folk with loaded handguns in a stressful combat situation. Give them split seconds to decide with live rounds what is safe to shoot and what is not.....and place casual observers downrange with only a painted red line for protection? Either the victim was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be or there was little forethought about scenarios such as what happened. The red line would do nothing for ricochets or NDs either.

 

[Warhawk83]

^My first thought before reading the entire story ,after hearing about the cat walk, was ricochet.

Didn't expect that he was intentionally shot.

I think this is what you call an "Incident" not an accident.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Why did Gunsite allow anybody to be on the catwalk?

place casual observers downrange with only a painted red line for protection?

My first thought was why was someone stupid enough to be downrange during a life-fire drill?

Without knowing more details, it's difficult for me to begin blaming Gunsite. Regardless of the training offered or not offered, it's common sense for shooters to think "I shouldn't be downrange from a shooter."

The shooter also needs to bear his part of the blame. Anyone who has had any training knows not to fire at unclear targets. I'm willing to bet my new Winchester that this simple rule was part of his "target selection" training for this very exercise.

KR

 

[Officers'Wife]

Standing on a platform downrange...
Shooting at an unidentified target...


Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

 

[Owen]

This is a shoothouse. Every shoothouse I've seen has a catwalk so trainers can watch the students move through the scenario. I'm wondering if this was an LE class, because when I was there, the trainer followed the student through the house, one student at a time, and everyone else had to sit in a lean-to 50 yards or so away from the shoothouse. If these were highly trained officers or the like, I can see them perhaps relaxing the rules.

this structure is essentially a cinder block enclosure maybe 25 yd square, with roof over the top of it, and a baffled entrance way. Inside this structure is a "house" with no roof. I'd guess the walls are 8ft high. There is a red stripe 6 feet off the ground through out the structure. Students are instructed over and over again to not raise the muzzle above the red line. For him to even see the guy, or for the guy to be able to watch the shooter, he would have to be almost directly overhead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jo4AGPH2_Q

 

[Jolly Rogers]

Every shoothouse I've seen has a catwalk so trainers can watch the students move through the scenario.

VIDEO CAMERAS....don't bleed or sue (if they survive). Catwalks during live fire with human observers= STUPID

Gunsite is complicit here. No other way to look at it and the practice has or will stop now that there has been an "incident".
Joe

 

[Odd Job]

Can't they have protective glass if they must have people downrange?

 

[Crusader103]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this.

There was some guy standing DOWNRANGE on some elevated platform?

Not necessarily. Many shoot houses have a walking platform that runs the perimeter of the walls, where the roof would normally be. That places the observer above the action, looking down on top of it. The red line, runs around the outside of the walls, six feet above the ground, serving as the "ceiling." Students are instructed not to shoot above it.

So no, the instructor was not necessarily actually downrange, but "above range" if you will.

You can still argue the safety aspects of such a set-up but this design is in widespread use, including by our military. If on the platform, instructors should remain not only above (which is by design) but also behind the shooter nonetheless. The practice of having casual or student observers on the platform is still up for discussion.

 

[LaserSpot]

This must be it, the video shows the catwalk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bn-5X4Kej0

Can't they have protective glass if they must have people downrange?

The whole building is downrange; it's a free fire zone. I wouldn't want to be standing up on the catwalk unless I was sure the guy flinging lead sees me.

 

[Enachos]

Darn it! You beat me to it Owens

... this is indeed a kill house we're talking about here and those catwalks are fairly common.

 

[W.E.G.]

Go to any indoor range that has been in business more than a day, and look downrange at an upward angle.

Tell me what you see.
The amount of ND evidence is nothing short of astonishing.

I guarantee that not one of those million holes in the ceiling was fired there on purpose.
But they sure are there.
No way you could get me to stand up there unless the shooters were limited to Airsoft, and even then, I wouldn't go down there without a mask and a groin-cup.

 

[smince]

Remember, too, it wasn't a GS instructor watching the action. They let the shooter's buddy watch him from the catwalk.

Possibly a regular would have known a safer place to stand?

 

[Hatterasguy]

Those catwalks don't seem like a very safe place to stand. I have yet to go to a range that didn't have a ton of holes in the ceiling from accidents.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Having observers on the catwalk isn't so much of an issue when the students are firing paintballs or simmunitions or are being guided or instructed through during run-throughs without any ammo. When students are firing real bullets, even frangible rounds, the danger is high if the observer on the catwalk is downrange from the shooter.

 

[Owen]

Gunsite's culpability is going to rest on what their written policy is. If the SOP for the shoothouse says no one overhead for live fire, it will be on the individual instructors at that location

 

[Odd Job]

The whole building is downrange; it's a free fire zone. I wouldn't want to be standing up on the catwalk unless I was sure the guy flinging lead sees me.

If that's the case, why can't they have a glass ceiling? I am having trouble visualising a 360 degree range where there can't be glass between the trainee and the observer.

 

[LaserSpot]

If that's the case, why can't they have a glass ceiling? I am having trouble visualising a 360 degree range where there can't be glass between the trainee and the observer.

It costs hundreds of dollars per square foot, roofing an entire building with bullet proof glass would be cost prohibitive for anyone but the Pentagon. I think Jolly Rogers idea was a lot more practical:

VIDEO CAMERAS....don't bleed or sue (if they survive). Catwalks during live fire with human observers= STUPID

 

[Buck Snort]

Some lucky lawyer in Prescott, AZ is going to get a fat paycheck.

 

[Tacbandit]

Gee whiz...hope he's gonna be ok...