Armed Citizen stopped church shooting in Texas by shooting at suspect perhaps killing him

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I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.

We have entered a time when humans are now willing to end their live and to generate as much agony as possible by taking innocent lives with them. And when the lunatic’s exit from this world involves the use of a gun, the liberal’s solution is always more legislative gun control.

As you step back and observe these coward’s actions, the targets are constantly those that offer the weakest defense. No gun zones and entry prohibitions have only increased the number of opportunities.

Changing times requires changing methods. The solution is more guns not less. Even the lunatic will avoid confrontation if he knows there are armed citizens prepared to foil his nasty deed. It will not end all evil but it is a far better solution than the bureaucratic solution for the restriction to self-defense.
 
Rights > lives.

Yep. First thing you’ve posted that seems pro-Second Amendment, but then you say it’s a shame.

Shall not be infringed. Pretty clear. The only Constitutional way to ban the guns that scare you is to repeal the Second Amendment. Make that argument if you want.

It’s a shame America is a nation with so many violent psycho/sociopaths, but when the first call to action after a shooting is to ban the tool, not to seek to mitigate the conditions that precipitate the violence, it seems we aren’t smart enough collectively to ever solve the problem - the problem being excessive, unwarranted violence against innocents, not a problem of weapons that you don’t like that cause less carnage than cars, bombs, etc.

Fix the problem. Stop crazies from having guns. The Constitution isn’t a suicide pact - we can fix the problem with the right ideas and execution and not infringe upon the rights of the 99.9% of those doing the right thing.

And, FWIW, I don’t believe it’s an infringement to keep someone unstable from having a weapon, provided a robust system of due process to prevent government abuse.

I want every sane, able bodied (physically able to safely use a gun - sorry blind people, young kids, geriatrics with dementia, etc) American citizen to own an M4. I don’t want one single mentally deranged person to have one. How do we make that happen while staying true to the spirit of the constitution?

Sorry for the rant, but we are just as responsible for finding a solution to the problem as anyone else and we can do it better.
 
He was discharges dishonorably for assaulting his wife and child. That should have made him a prohibited person, but it isn't clear that the assault on his wife and child while in service would have been reported to NICS and listing him as prohibited as it would in the civilian system.

He received a Bad Conduct Discharge which is NOT the same as a Dishonorable Discharge. The 4473 specifies a Dishonorable Discharge so I'm not sure A BCD in itself would have disqualified him.

Having said that the one year confinement and the DV conviction should have
 
Guns at church here in VA kinda reads like a liberal state, something along the lines of you can't carry unless you feel a need to.

I have no idea of the laws in Texas but in general engaging a suspect after a crime has been committed is probably not a good idea, much less chasing after them.

Not real clear at this point if the Samaritan had any impact on this situation other than after the fact, or if it was legal.

Was it the right thing to do morally? Probably.

Probably? It was absolutely the correct thing to do, morally or otherwise. The shooter was still a credible threat and needed to be put down. Good gosh.
 
Latest report is that shooter had an ongoing domestic grudge against his in-laws who attended that church but who were not present at the time of the attack. Hence it is highly likely that the threat of further violence existed as he left the church, since he may well have been heading to the home of the in-laws to finish the job.
 
I have a question and it's solely based on what I've heard on the news so far. I've heard that Kelly applied and was denied a concealed handgun permit by the state of Texas. I have a permit and I know that a BC is run by the state where I live. But here the state is the POC for all things pistol, or dealer>state>NICS, then NICS>state>dealer.

In Texas the POC is NICS, or Dealer>NICS. So the state must have ran some additional checks before they denied him a permit. They probably checked his military records.

My question is why do so many of these people with records of domestic abuse, questionable military histories and arrest records slip through the NCIC database? It seems to be a reoccurring theme in these mass shootings.

I think Kelly purchased that gun legally at Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio thru a FFL dealer.
 
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My question is why do so many of these people with records of domestic abuse, questionable military histories and arrest records slip through the NCIC database? It seems to be a reoccurring theme in these mass shootings.
Probably meant to be rhetorical but I'll answer anyway, it is because incompetence is the norm in government.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*.

Of course we don't. You don't have to go to church armed. It's your choice. If that's your choice, you choose to limit your personal security. That's fine. That doesn't change the fact that even though violent crime is way down, it still happens.
 
rocketmedic: ... less availability of assault rifles might have decreased the numbers of dead ...

Aim1: He could have most likely done the same damage when a semi—automatic pistol.

Virginia Tech shooting 16 April 2007
32 killed and 17 wounded, the shooter had nineteen magazines for a Glock 19 (15 rd) and Walther P22 (10 rd).

Art Eatman: ... a five-gallon bucket of gasoline would have been even deadlier ...

_ Happy Land Social Club arson 25 Mar 1990, 87 dead and 9 injured, the arsonist used one dollar's worth of gasoline.
_ Blue Bird Café fire, Montreal, 1 Sep 1972, 37 dead and injured patrons unknown. 5 firemen known injured and treated. Some sources cite the weapon as a molotov cocktail.
_ UpStairs Lounge arson, New Orleans, 24 Jun 1973, 32 dead and 15 injuried. Before committing suicide the alleged arsonist claimed he used a can of lighter fluid.

A lot of people in a big room, like the Sutherland Spring church, similar results but no AR involved.

In the Nice, France truck attack, 14 Jul 2016, a jihadist drove a large truck through a crowd of people celebrating Bastille Day, killing 86 people and injuring 458.

I don't own an AR, but I don't think banning my relatives' ARs would make me safe from madmen or fanatics.
 
I have three colt ar 15,s and the only thing they have killed is a 12x12 pieces of paper with a bullseye on them. eastbank.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*.

Two friends of my brother. a man and woman I played volleyball with at a family and friends picnic, were murdered by a carjacker when they stopped to view the fall foliage. I really don't want to live in a society where I *have* to go armed and ready to view fall foliage, but the bad guys willing to kill for pocket change (eleven dollars) have made it that way, not the people who recognize the problem and prepare.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*.

We don't. The risk of something like this is vanishingly small, but in a nation the size and population of the United States we will see these murders more frequently than in a much smaller population. The RATE of these is tiny therefore the risk to any of us is tiny.
 
We have entered a time when humans are now willing to end their live and to generate as much agony as possible by taking innocent lives with them.

This is nothing new and has been literally going on as long as there have been records of such feats. Bad people have always existed and will always exist.

The fact that people keep saying things like, "I never expected it would happen here" or "I never thought it would happen to me" in all sorts of such events just goes to show how much we, as a society, are in denial and just how little we do to care for ourselves when it comes to matters such as personal safety.

We are in the modern age of information. There are loads of documentation about bad things happening at churches and bad things happening in small towns. To believe or think otherwise is just plain naive.
 
For those interested, events as posted on ar15com.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general...d-as-we-know-now-updated-12pm-11-6/5-2048865/

I wrote this up so folks don't have to search through the entire big thread to find out what happened
Multiple updates

Short version of events, a gunman drove to a small church and opened fire. An armed citizen with an AR-15 rifle engaged him to end his violence, hitting him causing him to drop his rifle. The gunmen fled in his vehicle and was chased by the armed citizen and another citizen. The gunman went off the road and was found dead in car. The armed citizen stopped the attack and prevented the gunman from killing or injuring any others.



Detailed version of events.

According to initial reports the gunman,Devin Patrick Kelley, drove to the store across from the church and exited his vehicle. He was dressed in all black, with a black face mask with a skull on it and wearing a ballistic vest. He was armed with a Ruger 5.56x45mm AR rifle equipped with an inexpensive red dot sight, white light, sling and a vertical grip. He began shooting walking towards the church, moved to the right of the church and continued firing and then entered the church shooting. He fired as he walked to the front of the church, stopped, turned and continued shooting as he walked back out. It is believed his rifle was loaded with Hornady TAP or VMAX ammunition based upon a loaded cartridge left at the scene. 23 people were killed in the church, two outside the church and one died at a hospital. 20 more were wounded. Ages of the victims range from 18 months to 72 years old.

A neighbor, 55 year old Stephen Willeford, heard the gunfire and responded by grabbing an AR-15 rifle and taking up a shooting position. Stephen Willeford fired on the gunman as he exited the church hitting him which caused the gunman to drop his rifle, a Ruger AR, and run to his vehicle. Stephen Willeford continued to engage the gunman attempting to stop him and prevent him from fleeing. He fired at least one shot which blew out the back window of the gunman's vehicle. The shooter drove away at a high rate of speed and called his father telling him he'd been shot and he didn't think he was going to live due to the gunshot wound he'd received. In order to prevent the gunman from escaping and causing further harm, Stephen Willeford flagged down a vehicle. Stephen Willeford quickly informed the driver of the pick-up truck, Johnnie Langendorff, of the situation and entered the vehicle. Johnnie Langendorff set out in pursuit of the fleeing gunman while contacting the police via his cell phone. During the pursuit Johnnie Langendorff closed the distance with the fleeing gunman while reaching speeds of 95 mph. He was able to get within a few feet of the fleeing gunman's vehicle, which then slowed, before the gunman lost control of his vehicle and went off the road at an intersection.

Stephen Willeford exited the pick-up and covered the gunman's vehicle with his rifle to prevent the gunman's escape. Johnnie Langendorff stated the gunman made no movements inside his vehicle. Johnnie Langendorff placed his vehicle in park and informed the police of the gunman's location. The police arrived on location approximately 5 to 7 minutes later. The gunman died at the scene, and Johnnie Langendorff stated the gunman made no movements and there were no shots fired for the 5 to 7 minutes before police arrived. Evidence indicates, especially with his call to his father that he had been shot and "didn't think he was going to make it" that the gunman bled out and died from a gunshot wound or wounds inflicted by the armed citizen. Police stated the gunman's vehicle contained multiple firearms and he may have been headed to another location to continue his shooting spree, but was killed instead.


The shooter, Devin Patrick Kelley, was 26 years old, father of two. High School classmates of his are quoted as saying he was an outcast who preached "atheism" and said "anyone who believes in God is stupid". He served in the US Air Force from 2009 to 2013 and was Court-Martialed and discharged in 2014 after assaulting his wife and child and serving 12 months in the brig. Under Federal Law a Domestic Violence conviction would prohibit him from legally owning a firearm but evidently was not disqualified as he purchased his rifle at an Academy store. His mother-in-law sometimes attended the church he attacked, and he was having family problems. While she was not there during the shooting, it could be a domestic issue.

Without a doubt the armed citizen, Stephen Willeford, is a hero who likely saved many more lives by his quick thinking and willingness to step in and take action. His ability to properly employ a long gunagainst an armed and moving gunman while under great stress saved lives and put an end to the shooting spree. His actions demonstrate how a legally owned firearm can be used to save lives if the person behind the gun has the mettle and ability to properly put it to use. Johnnie Langendorff is also a hero for putting his life at risk, while unarmed, and pursuing the gunman to ensure he did not escape.


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The above information is from LE accounts, statements made by the driver of the pick-up and armed citizen, the gunman's father and the gunman's high school class mates.
It has been updated as more information has come in.
 
A person who practices speed reloads with a semi-auto pistol could deliver very nearly the same rate of fire as in this event. Check out any USPSA or IDPA event.

AR type rifles are not a relevant gripe. I've seen ten-round mags for a Winchester 100. In .308 in that crowded church, there would have many "twofers"; maybe even "threefers".
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.
I agree, but incidents like this do happen, and that is why I carried in church yesterday and every time I go. It was an extra PITA to carry yesterday, because it was Operation Christmas Child Sunday, and I was cartonizing the shoeboxes, but the events at that TX church highlight why I was glad I had a CCW on me yesterday.
 
Perhaps we'll get more details indicating the neighbor engaged the murderer before he was finished shooting at the parishioners, but as of now the reports are that the neighbor engaged the murderer after he'd finished and was returning to his vehicle.
I read that the shooter was still shooting after he was outside of the church, apparently at neighboring homes. One witness said a bullet landed in his (the witness') son's home, 4 feet from his (the witness') grandchild.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.
We might not WANT to, but I don't see how we get a choice about that.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.
I have been a pastor for almost 30 years. I have never gone to church without carrying. Underwear may not be mandatory, but my pistol always is.
 
We have a choice, that's what's great about America. I choose to carry at church, and many other places. Those that don't want to are welcome to choose not to.
 
Latest report is that shooter had an ongoing domestic grudge against his in-laws who attended that church but who were not present at the time of the attack. Hence it is highly likely that the threat of further violence existed as he left the church, since he may well have been heading to the home of the in-laws to finish the job.
Correct, but the good Samaritan couldn't have known that.
 
I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.

The thing is, many of us CHL/LTC licensees in Texas have been carrying to church for many years. We do it virtually invisibly and it doesn't take away from the church going experience for us or the unarmed that attend beside us.

Those that do carry inside church in Texas likely do it because they carry everywhere it's lawful to do so anyway. Church is an earthly destination and unfortunately not immune from the evils of the world.
 
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