Armed Citizen stopped church shooting in Texas by shooting at suspect perhaps killing him

[Theohazard]

Are you sure that if you’re dishonorably discharged you can’t own a gun? That doesn't sound right. I can see for domestic assault, but just a DD? There are a lot of things you can be DD’d for.

A dishonorable discharge bars you from possessing firearms or ammunition for life.

I'm always surprised how many people think that military discharges are binary and that you either receive an honorable discharge or a dishonorable discharge.

Actually, there are many different levels of military discharge, and the only one that bars you from possessing firearms is the worst one; a dishonorable. And in order to receive a dishonorable discharge you really, really have to mess up. We're talking major crimes here.

I served in the Marine Corps with a guy who stole his brother's identity and faked he was prior Army in order to get promoted earlier. He got busted down to Private and then sent to the brig. Then he got caught stealing someone's ATM card and withdrawing hundreds of dollars from the account and got sent to the brig again. Finally after he was caught stealing his roommate's gear he was kicked out. But even then he didn't get a dishonorable discharge, he just got a bad conduct discharge.

 

[wojownik]

Is it an automatic disqualifer then or just a box that makes them look further into it?

It's an automatic disqualifier. Or, more specifically, a dishonorable discharge is one of the federally prohibiting criteria for NICS. "Other than honorable" discharge is not a dishonorable discharge.

Apparently he got an OTH discharge because of domestic violence. The 4473 question is whether one has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. He served 12 months' confinement after a 2012 court-martial, then got a bad conduct discharge and reduction in rank. That in and of itself should have triggered NICS, even if he lied on his 4473, because he should have been in the system.

Also (apparently) he entered a Colorado address on the 4473 that he was filling out in the Texas retailer. That should have been caught as well, if true.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Engaged after the church shooting, but was he done?

We will never know how far he would have gone, or for how long.

Armed ,lawful citizens rock.

The story I read said he came out of the church and began shooting at neighbors. The hero citizen came out his house with a gun and engaged him while he was still shooting up the neighborhood. The neighbor wounded him and he fled. He may have killed himself or died of his wound.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Bad post

 

[Art Eatman]

Probably should be in capital letters: State laws vary.

Per Lautenberg, he could not legally own any firearm.

In Texas: Absent a 30-06 or 30-07 sign at the door, a CHL holder can carry in church.

It is legal in Texas to shoot a fleeing felonious criminal if a rational and prudent person determines that the miscreant is an ongoing danger to the public. (It is reported that the shooter dropped his rifle, but it's quite possible for an onlooker to assume more weaponry in the vehicle. And ISIS has proven that a vehicle itself is a deadly weapon.)

 

[Rocketmedic]

Gun control wouldn't have stopped this, but less availability of assault rifles might have decreased the numbers of dead. Either way, this is terrible.

Good on the armed citizen taking him on. That seems to be the only way to end these rampages.

 

[Art Eatman]

Rm, a five-gallon bucket of gasoline would have been even deadlier. The money doesn't exist to buy up all the semi-autos now owned, and politicians want to get re-elected--so you can forget your ongoing war against semi-autos.

 

[CoalTrain49]

From what I'm reading in the news he received a bad conduct discharge for domestic abuse, not a dishonorable discharge.

Eventually we will know where he got the rifle. I haven't seen any reports about that yet.

My guess is he probably bought it from a gun dealer and the NCIC query didn't flag him.

I guess we're going to find out in a few days.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Gun control wouldn't have stopped this, but less availability of assault rifles might have decreased the numbers of dead. Either way, this is terrible.

Good on the armed citizen taking him on. That seems to be the only way to end these rampages.

Gun control wouldn't have stopped it but we need more of it anyway?
OR we need more armed citizens because it's the only way to stop these crimes.
Which is it?

 

[CoalTrain49]

Gun control wouldn't have stopped this, but less availability of assault rifles might have decreased the numbers of dead. Either way, this is terrible.

Good on the armed citizen taking him on. That seems to be the only way to end these rampages.

Less availability of semi-auto rifles is gun control. You just want to call it something else. Maybe we should call your version gun control light.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Also (apparently) he entered a Colorado address on the 4473 that he was filling out in the Texas retailer. That should have been caught as well, if true.

Why? If he had a valid CO ID there is nothing prohibiting direct interstate purchase of a long gun.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I have no idea of the laws in Texas but in general engaging a suspect after a crime has been committed is probably not a good idea, much less chasing after them.

Not real clear at this point if the Samaritan had any impact on this situation other than after the fact, or if it was legal.

Was it the right thing to do morally? Probably.

I think in most cases of mass shootings, one can reasonably infer an intent to continue the terrorist activity until forcefully stopped. It seems disingenuous to lump mass shootings and other serial murders in with other, more ordinary, crimes.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Gun control wouldn't have stopped this, but less availability of assault rifles might have decreased the numbers of dead. Either way, this is terrible.

I doubt that. There are 26 dead and a lot more wounded. Even if a person is only able to obtain a handgun and is restricted to 10 round magazines, one can certainly carry 10 magazines, and make 100 well aimed shots before police can respond. Even if only 10% of those result in fatalities, you've got 10 dead people on hand. I believe a person with minimal training or even entirely self taught could pull this off.

So maybe we need to outlaw or restrict tactical vests? Cargo pants? Mag loaders? Well then reload speed is an issue isn't it? Do we need "Smart Magazine Releases" that restrict the speed of a reload by requiring a combo be input? The point is the slope is damned slippery, and if we allow a reaction to take away one right, and bad things continue to happen as is very likely, what right will they want to take away next time?

Enforcement of laws on the books, increased security, an increase in legal citizen carry and training, and a real effort to remove the stigma that gets attached to "mental health issues" is what will make this better. However, there will always be the loners in our society that go unnoticed who need real help. If they are unnoticed, how can they be helped? They can't. So that brings us back to increased security, legal carry, and training.

Sorry, I'm not trying to derail the thread, but the quoted post really bugged me.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Rm, a five-gallon bucket of gasoline would have been even deadlier. The money doesn't exist to buy up all the semi-autos now owned, and politicians want to get re-elected--so you can forget your ongoing war against semi-autos.

Exactly. A bomb or intentionally set fire could have been even more destructive. Maniacs will use whatever they have access to in order to enact violence.

Ok. I'll shut up now.

Bottom line is this is horrible.

 

[hso]

An armed neighbor shot at him with his own rifle, perhaps wounding him, and ending the rampage.

Perhaps we'll get more details indicating the neighbor engaged the murderer before he was finished shooting at the parishioners, but as of now the reports are that the neighbor engaged the murderer after he'd finished and was returning to his vehicle.

 

[Aim1]

Update:

It appears that the hero who stopped the shooting was a neighbor who got a call about the shooting by his daughter.

Man is a plumber has no military or LEO experience. Got his rifle and engaged the shooter and hit him in an open spot in his body armor. He shot him after the suspect apparently dropped his Ruger AR. Maybe he was out of ammo or had a malfunction.

Plumber then jumps into a vehicle of another man and they give chase. Eventually suspect pulls over and they do the same and approach the vehicle with his rifle drawn. Suspect is found dead in his car before police arrive.

Another article says suspect shot himself in the head. So it was suicide.


http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/sharpshooting-plumber-fired-shot-that-took-down-texas-church-gunman/

 

[hso]

Are you sure that if you’re dishonorably discharged you can’t own a gun? That doesn't sound right. I can see for domestic assault, but just a DD? There are a lot of things you can be DD’d for.

He was discharges dishonorably for assaulting his wife and child. That should have made him a prohibited person, but it isn't clear that the assault on his wife and child while in service would have been reported to NICS and listing him as prohibited as it would in the civilian system.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Guns at church here in VA kinda reads like a liberal state, something along the lines of you can't carry unless you feel a need to.

I have no idea of the laws in Texas but in general engaging a suspect after a crime has been committed is probably not a good idea, much less chasing after them.

Not real clear at this point if the Samaritan had any impact on this situation other than after the fact, or if it was legal.

Was it the right thing to do morally? Probably.

G O B, I usually agree with your posts but I don't think you thought this one through.
From what I understand the Samaritan engaged the suspect when he exited the church. No reasonable person could possibly conclude that the crime was over at that point.
Pursuing the suspect was also the right decision, the alternative being waiting for police and saying "he went that way".

 

[Rocketmedic]

I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I really don't think that we want to live in a society where we *have* to go armed and ready to *church*. I mean, guns are cool and Constant Vigilance...but I don't think a Glock necessarily ought to be as mandatory as underwear for most of us.

And your point is?

 

[Rocketmedic]

And your point is?

I don't think this is even a gun problem, per se. As long as y'all insist on making assault rifles as available as water, we're going to see high-casualty mass shootings happen with regularity. Rights > lives. So, we're going to have to live with that reality. It's just a shame that that is the case.

The only 'fix' is to make guns so common in society that multiple people immediately and lethally defend themselves and others.

 

[.455_Hunter]

As long as y'all insist on making assault rifles as available as water, we're going to see high-casualty mass shootings happen with regularity.

This guy bought his rifle months ago, and could easily bought an equivalent Colt SP1 in 1980. The difference now is that sick people think this is a reasonable solution to their life problems, something not really on the radar screen in earlier times.

 

[Aim1]

I don't think this is even a gun problem, per se. As long as y'all insist on making assault rifles as available as water, we're going to see high-casualty mass shootings happen with regularity. Rights > lives. So, we're going to have to live with that reality. It's just a shame that that is the case.

The only 'fix' is to make guns so common in society that multiple people immediately and lethally defend themselves and others.

He could have most likely done the same damage when a semi—automatic pistol.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I don't think this is even a gun problem, per se. As long as y'all insist on making assault rifles as available as water, we're going to see high-casualty mass shootings happen with regularity. Rights > lives. So, we're going to have to live with that reality. It's just a shame that that is the case.

The only 'fix' is to make guns so common in society that multiple people immediately and lethally defend themselves and others.

Not a gun problem
We insist on the free flow of assault rifles and that causes mass shootings
You now think more guns is the "fix"?
Do you read your own posts? If so do they make sense to you?

 

[jjones45]

This is exactly why my church encourages conceal carry and has 4-6 security guards per service who conceal carry as well as stage themselves in various areas of the church in regular clothes. I personally know plenty of our congregation that carries. Heck even my pastor conceal carries. This is yet another tragedy to fuel the fire for the gun grabbers. Sad, sad, sad. I pray for the families and friends of the victims. It’s a shame mentally unstable and evil individuals affect our rights so directly. If all I’m reading is true there were a lot of red flags missed and someone has blood on their hands